from wikipedia:
Wirth’s law is an adage on computer performance which states that software is getting slower more rapidly than hardware is becoming faster
hardware doesn’t degrade, yet a lot of devices, that felt very snappy in the beginning, that are merely 5 years old feel outdated and slow, because if a trillion dollar corporation can’t be bothered to write a native application, and graces us with a control bar widget that’s an entire chromium browser, whose only purpose is to push two buttons, then very few others will be
on mobile, because developers are practically forced to write an app for absolutely everything, and there are easy to use tools available that will take your js and compile it into native components (like reactnative and nativescript), otherwise your app will be crippled, it is less pronounced on mobile in my opinion
on desktop, because you can write applications however you want, every bloody thing is in electron: chat apps, text editors, IDEs and even terminals and browsers (lol), it’s a complete disaster in my opinion, even a person like me, who wages holy war against electron apps, is forced to use a couple electron applications (looking angrily at you discord and zoom 😡)
the problem is that most people start with (and never go on from) javascript as their first (and final language), which is an interpreted language, made to be run in a browser, that was designed in like two weeks, and the expectations are sky-high (apps that utilize native components across five operating systems and two processor architectures), and the unfortunate result of these requirements is electron
there are some emerging solutions like extremely cross-platform flutter (but it’s not js) and there are now native macOS and windows targets for react native, but it’s rarely used
it seems like unless there will emerge some framework, that would magically sip out the project from the developer’s mind in js and transform it into native apps for ios, android, linux, macOS and windows, with zero modifications required from the developer, we have little hope, and such a framework would not only be a silly project, but also an effort of astronomical proportions
so we’re stuck with either iron grip control of corporations over mobile platforms that force everyone to write an app for everything, or with the freedom of the desktop, but we end up running 15 instances of chromium, not to mention the fragility of the web standards nowadays
what do you think?
Its an artificial / manufactured problem created by privatized / capitalist software development, as @yogthos@lemmy.ml has pointed out in a great recent post. Its not a real law, just part of the tendency to minimize labor costs by taking the path of least resistance by using bloated frameworks, and focusing only on features rather than performance.
so we’re stuck with either iron grip control of corporations over mobile platforms that force everyone to write an app for everything, or with the freedom of the desktop, but we end up running 15 instances of chromium, not to mention the fragility of the web standards nowadays
The only answer IMO is to continue support open source projects and initiatives… we don’t have the same incentives as companies who seek profit above all else, and can take the time to clean up our code, focus on performance, privacy, interoperability… etc.
Capitalism (or any kind of performance-metric) values output over quality. The problem can either be solved by the consumer (lol) or by overcoming (maybe later) or subverting this system.
Copylefted free software has the power to do the later, as long as there is an active community that has a shared vision for the project and isn’t afraid to tell people to go fork themselves if they go against it. Maintainers should not only think about what they want but also about what they don’t want for their project to become and make that clear to users and contributers alike. (E.g. no DRM, no [proprietary service] etc.)
I know thats not an immediate solution (how to get my friends on linux if they can’t do x) but thats the whole point, doing it properly just takes longer. And you should take that time, instead of hacking together something subpar that gets turned into infrastructure by some idiot.
A bit of a side tangent: Why run Discord and Zoom as electron applications? They both work fine in a browser and you can just pin a tab to have them readily accessible.
Running them in the browser is more resource efficient and also more secure. The electron app only adds a few convenience features that are very insecure because they require more system access and are thus forbidden in browsers.
Otherwise… I use GNU/Linux and my computers all seem fast, even the old ones (at least when upgraded with SSDs) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Honest answer right here. Also I’ve recently had to use a computer with an HDD, like the old ones you can hear spinning and read/writing? It’s incredible how slow they are. We’re so lucky to have solid state tech these days.
I tried running Windows 10 on a HDD and I was about to throw that machine out the window. Switched to a SSD and it’s like a brand new machine. Interestingly, my Debian installation ran perfectly fine on the HDD lol.
I’ve never really tried linux on an HDD. At least not since the old days, but it definitely wasn’t very slow back then. Yeah, Win10 on HDD feels equivalent to the computing power of a toaster.
It’s the same on linux now as well. Opening Firefox takes several minutes until it’s able to load a webpage.
That seems excessive. Computer specs? And what kind of webpage? Something really dynamic like reddit or static like https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/
Doesn’t matter what website, from FF start to it showing the first website it takes a while. I think it’s loading it’s cache into ram or something.
Gotcha. There are a lot of variables at play that can affect loading times for websites.
I have had linux have terrible loading times on a HDD as well
To be fair to HDDs, the modern ones have reached about half the speed of a low end SATA SSD, so replacing an old HDD with a good new one also speeds up the storage considerably.
Idk, my PCs are also pretty fast with HDDs including these using decade old ones (mostly SATA but also a PATA).
I guess it comes down to the choices that consumers make, and to woke-sufficiency.
I’m quite attracted by the RaspberryPi marketing of their Pi4 - the idea that this SBC is enough for doing most of what you need to do. This gives a lightweight OS, and lightweight apps.
If everyone started saying “something of the power of the RPi is sufficient”, then perhaps things would change. The perennial deal-breaker problem is though : people want to use certain apps.
I’m not quite buying this. First of all, most people are forced to use some bloated OS and software at work. This means they get used to certain apps and unless they have a specific interest in say Open Source, they won’t look into alternatives. Schools, universities, etc. all get “sponsored” by big tech as well, leading to further market capture.
Secondly, things like Linux are presented by large corps as complicated, which simply isn’t true but again, the large corp would have some credibility bonus.
In general, the computer industry is largely consolidated from a customer perspective to a number of large players that scare people actively away from open solutions. As with nearly everything, you cannot vote with your wallet, since the markets are heavily tilted towards large corporations.
Finally, what is “woke-sufficiency”?
Woke-sufficiency is the moment when someone realizes that they don’t need a sledgehammer to crack a nut (whatever the advertisers might say).
I’ve made the point for a long time that if we could get proprietary software removed from education, and get it mandated that hardware should be sold without pre-installed software, then it would basically be all over for proprietary companies in a generation. If Work were presented with the chance to save €40 on every laptop/desktop bought by not having the Micro$oft license included in the price : I’m sure they’d at least start looking at the alternatives.
But bloat isn’t the reserve of proprietary OSs and apps either… Linux OSs seem to need more power than they used to, and there’s feature creep in open source apps too.
Yes, generally agree.
However the bloat in Linux can be managed more easily and is nowhere as intense. Even old RPis and old laptops are still usable after 10+ years.
My IT experience at work has been deteriorating for at least 6 years now. It is now at a stage where I go back to handwritten notes and MS Notepad, because those generally don’t crash my work laptop that often.
The other areas where there is intense bloat is phones. After de-googling my phones (incl. custom ROM), everything works more smooth and the battery typically lasts 50% longer (guestimate). I’ve de-googled probably over half a dozen phones so far and the end product was always way smoother and faster and much extended battery life.
This might not be a popular thought but : phones have far exceeded their remit - they’ve been capable handheld computers for the best part of a decade now - probably since they became powerful enough to do multitasking. I’m still a great fan of Mark Shuttleworth’s idea of convergence… It’s such a pity that didn’t take off. Most people’s handhelds are way more powerful than they need to be for what they do with them.
I agree with this. The new pinephone docks to a monitor and becomes a computer. If you could do this with the new $1000 iphones, it would be more than sufficient. I’ve read recently that the A15 bionic outperforms several last generation gaming consoles. Unfortunately, doing this would also kill the company’s market for laptops. Not just Apple, but also Google with their chrome books.
Would really be cool to just bring your phone to work and plug it in and you have a fully functioning desktop. Would be an absolute privacy nightmare though.
I wonder why Pine64 didn’t use their 8GB board for their PinePhone Pro… that really would have been a game-changer.
I guess there were power problems, or heat issues.
Absolutely! I think any extra power in the phones is simply used to suck up more data and telemetrics. The phones get faster so the Samsungs, Googles and Apples can run their useless extras for their own benefits.
That’s why the phones run so much smoother once you e.g. remove google and put on a custom rom
I absolutely agree that there’s bloat (for companies’ advantage) in phone OSs, and that a better experience is had with an open source alternative.
Forgot to say, the solution is to burn all fucking webdevs
The unavoidable fact is that supporting nice nimble native APIs for every OS is more work than targeting electron. The best thing any individual can do is help with that work - support software that compiles to native APIs, e.g. if you Matrix consider using/contributing to nheko instead of Element.
I don’t think it’s just what you have been describing, but also nowadays it’s normal to expect fullHD video content to be processed etc.
I think the solution is more open-source hard- and software. Because it has different incentives for the developers.
The proprietary business model is certainly a huge contributory factor - companies have to provide new features (=bloat) in order for people to re-buy their product.
This is one of the reasons I actually support subscriptions. Without them, you’re constantly incentivized to stuff new features to sell a newer version. With subscriptions, the incentive is to provide the best possible experience to convince people to stay, and to keep existing users.
Subscriptions come with a whole lot of other problems though
The solution is extending the Oberon Operating System and implementing the 22 RISC instructions platform over which it was designed.
http://www.projectoberon.com/ as introduction.
Yeah bro heres a whole chromium browser statically linked with your calculator
