Maybe like in Sweden, where the liberals went from calling themselves proud of being called the enemies of fascism, saying they will hide refugees if made illegal, to just straight up calling it “liberal politics actually”, and are now collaborating with them to form a government. Crazy how that happens every time.
The difference between liberals and the left is the stance on capitalism. Liberals believe they can make capitalism work, leftists insist we must move beyond it. The people obfuscating liberal and leftist are the people who want the discussion of moving past capitalism to stop. Don’t help them.
The difference between liberal and left is not fully capitalism dependant. It has more to do with lateral vs horizontal power structures. Liberal rhetoric tends to focus very much on personal property rights which means it basically is a machine to enable unchecked capitalism because it resists anything that would enable seizure or social checks on acquisition or regulation. It reinforces heirachy by legitimizing and protecting wealth and ensuring it snowballs creating greater inequity over time. Any check on what is considered personal property is anti-liberal to some extent.
There are actually liberal and social attitudes towards capitalism. Anti-trust measures, stock restrictions, union organization, reabsorbing privately held services and property into public trusts and services. These things exist as social counter measures to unchecked capitalism but not an attempt to explicitly remove the basic idea of investment capital existing in some form or another. The focus on decentralization of wealth agrigation and empowering labor still makes it nominally left of center.
So that’s it, is it? I can support all the social progressiveness I like, but as soon as I balk at the prospect of an autocrat hosting a violent revolution and instating communism, I’m the enemy?
Here is the definition I run on: Anyone left of centre is left. Anyone reaching for the guillotines (or more likely just meming about them from a basement) is far left. So far left that they will never see power and see everyone right of them as an enemy.
You’ve chosen a definition thats dependent on where you percieve ‘center’ to be. Its a variable point therefore to you that word doesn’t have a fixed meaning. A European centerist is an American left leaner, a decade ago the american ‘left’ was talking about UBI and medicade for all, now they’re talking about fixing bridges that are about to fall down. You’re either blind to the overton window shifting or happy that things like infrastructure upkeep is now considered ‘leftism’ but despite your best efforts, words still have meaning. You’re one of the people trying to obfuscate those meanings.
Nice buzzword, but it’s not me gatekeeping anything. Thats what leftism has meant since the phrase neoliberalism has existed. Im not the one who made the definition, you’re just ignoring it.
Words mean what people think they mean. “Decimate” means to remove 10% of something but everyone uses it as a synonym for annihilate. You need to understand that the vast majority of people see “liberals” and “leftists” as the same thing. Your conspiracy about obfuscation is cute but you’re giving people too much credit.
If words mean only what people think they mean then according to near or more than half the country Biden is in fact a communist. Words have meaning, Biden isn’t a Communist and liberalism and leftism are different things.
I’m not trying to be rude but you’re embarrassing yourself. Please educate yourself of political theory, philosophy and terminology before you start speaking on words and concepts that you clearly don’t understand. Here’s a good place to start. He makes great political theory videos. Here’s a playlist geared specifically towards liberalism. Here’s something on anti-fascism. All of those resources aren’t the end-all-be-all of politics but they’re at least a good place to start and you’ll be better off for it. Have a good one
Thank you for demonstrating my point without the slightest hint of irony.
Do you really not understand that there’s a conceptual distinction there at all? You started out by saying it’s a proud leftist tradition to call out other lefties for not being left enough. Which, honestly, fair enough.
But you think even the very idea of a conceptual distinction between liberals and leftists is an example of that? That’s fucking nuts, and it’s not the nuanced point you think it is.
Libertarians arent liberals unless you compare them to really ancient ones, they have hangups about the role of the state in preserving capitalism which leaves them laughing stock.
In Tolkien stories, all the good guys are liberals. Saruman and his uruk-hai are perhaps the most leftist things there are in those stories. Elves are moderate conservatives with some questionable histories.
“The Shire at this time had hardly any ‘government.’ Families for the most part managed their own affairs. … The Thain was the master of the Shire-moot, and captain of the Shire-muster and the Hobbitry-in-arms, but as a muster and moot were only held in times of emergency, which no longer occurred, the Thainship had ceased to be more than a nominal dignity.”
Sounds like night-watch libertarianism that had declined to something even more minimal. Which ironically was easily run over by a smooth-talking old man with a broken staff and a pretty small bunch of ruffians. You had one job.
Lol, saruman was more or less a theocratic monarchist with highly authoritarian practices like killing any who opposed his will. He literally used magic to dominate the wills of others. If anyone was leftist in that series it was the Hobbits. They were outright Communist with no government. Though there was certainly still a class structure of sorts there. It’s just tough to get a better look at Hobbit social politics. The books tend to just say “then they talked about their family history for 3 more hours” whenever it comes up.
Regardless, the stated intent of the story was to relay his experiences with war. Not with any political system. The forces of sauron and saruman just represented war itself. The feeling of its inevitable March towards you no matter how much you don’t want it and dread it. It’s very much how I’ve been feeling lately.
Hobbits had a government and a class system. In Tolkien it’s divine monarchies all the way down, some are just God willed and others are… Technically also God willed, because the good guys need bad guys to stab, I guess.
In Tolkien stories, all the good guys are liberals. Saruman and his uruk-hai are perhaps the most leftist things there are in those stories. Elves are moderate conservatives with some questionable histories.
I hope everyone here appreciates what a special moment this is. This has potential to be the most downvoted comment on Lemmy.
That comment somehow manages to be more divisive than the Palestinian conflict. A truly remarkable sequence of specious assertions that is guaranteed to piss off vast swathes of the population. Almost brings a tear to my eye
Did people forget what divisive means? I would say it’s exactly the opposite of divisive, it’s a comment that is produced as much singular unified reaction as you could possibly get.
I meant what I said. Most people disagree with the comment, but probably for a wide variety of reasons. It’s not a singular reaction, it’s multiple reactions to multiple insinuations that all happen to be questionable.
It’s a bit sad for Lemmy if 76 downvotes gets you to such a status. But mixing an interpretation of Tolkien with an anti-left message might indeed be one of the best ways to get there.
I don’t understand the memes connection between liberals and fascism.
Maybe like in Sweden, where the liberals went from calling themselves proud of being called the enemies of fascism, saying they will hide refugees if made illegal, to just straight up calling it “liberal politics actually”, and are now collaborating with them to form a government. Crazy how that happens every time.
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
Yelling at other lefties for not being left enough is a long and proud tradition.
The difference between liberals and the left is the stance on capitalism. Liberals believe they can make capitalism work, leftists insist we must move beyond it. The people obfuscating liberal and leftist are the people who want the discussion of moving past capitalism to stop. Don’t help them.
I disagree. There are plenty of examples of liberal anti-capitalists such as David Ellerman
The difference between liberal and left is not fully capitalism dependant. It has more to do with lateral vs horizontal power structures. Liberal rhetoric tends to focus very much on personal property rights which means it basically is a machine to enable unchecked capitalism because it resists anything that would enable seizure or social checks on acquisition or regulation. It reinforces heirachy by legitimizing and protecting wealth and ensuring it snowballs creating greater inequity over time. Any check on what is considered personal property is anti-liberal to some extent.
There are actually liberal and social attitudes towards capitalism. Anti-trust measures, stock restrictions, union organization, reabsorbing privately held services and property into public trusts and services. These things exist as social counter measures to unchecked capitalism but not an attempt to explicitly remove the basic idea of investment capital existing in some form or another. The focus on decentralization of wealth agrigation and empowering labor still makes it nominally left of center.
So that’s it, is it? I can support all the social progressiveness I like, but as soon as I balk at the prospect of an autocrat hosting a violent revolution and instating communism, I’m the enemy?
Here is the definition I run on: Anyone left of centre is left. Anyone reaching for the guillotines (or more likely just meming about them from a basement) is far left. So far left that they will never see power and see everyone right of them as an enemy.
You’ve chosen a definition thats dependent on where you percieve ‘center’ to be. Its a variable point therefore to you that word doesn’t have a fixed meaning. A European centerist is an American left leaner, a decade ago the american ‘left’ was talking about UBI and medicade for all, now they’re talking about fixing bridges that are about to fall down. You’re either blind to the overton window shifting or happy that things like infrastructure upkeep is now considered ‘leftism’ but despite your best efforts, words still have meaning. You’re one of the people trying to obfuscate those meanings.
You don’t get to gatekeep leftism behind communism.
Nice buzzword, but it’s not me gatekeeping anything. Thats what leftism has meant since the phrase neoliberalism has existed. Im not the one who made the definition, you’re just ignoring it.
Words mean what people think they mean. “Decimate” means to remove 10% of something but everyone uses it as a synonym for annihilate. You need to understand that the vast majority of people see “liberals” and “leftists” as the same thing. Your conspiracy about obfuscation is cute but you’re giving people too much credit.
Only if you are an exceptionalist usian. Liberals are not the left in most parliaments around the world.
If words mean only what people think they mean then according to near or more than half the country Biden is in fact a communist. Words have meaning, Biden isn’t a Communist and liberalism and leftism are different things.
Maybe 2% of people think that, it just seems like a common position because every one of them is on Reddit.
I’m not trying to be rude but you’re embarrassing yourself. Please educate yourself of political theory, philosophy and terminology before you start speaking on words and concepts that you clearly don’t understand. Here’s a good place to start. He makes great political theory videos. Here’s a playlist geared specifically towards liberalism. Here’s something on anti-fascism. All of those resources aren’t the end-all-be-all of politics but they’re at least a good place to start and you’ll be better off for it. Have a good one
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Here’s
playlist
Here’s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Removed by mod
Being anti-capitalist doesn’t immediately imply being a communist. There are other alternatives to capitalism such as Economic Democracy.
This is also a straw man fallacy
Liberals aren’t lefties.
Thank you for demonstrating my point without the slightest hint of irony.
Do you really not understand that there’s a conceptual distinction there at all? You started out by saying it’s a proud leftist tradition to call out other lefties for not being left enough. Which, honestly, fair enough.
But you think even the very idea of a conceptual distinction between liberals and leftists is an example of that? That’s fucking nuts, and it’s not the nuanced point you think it is.
Did you step out of a time machine from the 18th century? Liberals now represent conservative forces.
Have you lot just rebadged Libertarians?
Libertarians arent liberals unless you compare them to really ancient ones, they have hangups about the role of the state in preserving capitalism which leaves them laughing stock.
OK, I agree that libertarians are not liberals. They are mostly conservatives who don’t want to pay tax.
I’m still not following on why you don’t think Liberals are Left wing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Nobody but tankies understand that.
In Tolkien stories, all the good guys are liberals. Saruman and his uruk-hai are perhaps the most leftist things there are in those stories. Elves are moderate conservatives with some questionable histories.
Welp, that’s simultaneously the most “Enlightened Centrist” thing and the most batshit crazy dumb as a rock thing I’ve read in 2024 so far!
Donald Trump himself has less stupid takes than that!
Aww, don’t sell yourself short.
I’m not. If anything, I’m going too easy on your absolutely brain dead take.
What? How so?
Well obviously because when Pippin was sick, the orcs gave him free medicine
/s
Because I don’t like leftists, probably :)
No but seriously, I was thinking of the tankie type there, not all leftists. And wrote lazily. Sorry.
Does Hobbiton have any sort of government that I’m forgetting about or otherwise unaware of? I’ve always thought of it as an anarchists paradise
Sounds like night-watch libertarianism that had declined to something even more minimal. Which ironically was easily run over by a smooth-talking old man with a broken staff and a pretty small bunch of ruffians. You had one job.
Smooth talking old man that is secretly a god.
Angel, not God.
Lol, saruman was more or less a theocratic monarchist with highly authoritarian practices like killing any who opposed his will. He literally used magic to dominate the wills of others. If anyone was leftist in that series it was the Hobbits. They were outright Communist with no government. Though there was certainly still a class structure of sorts there. It’s just tough to get a better look at Hobbit social politics. The books tend to just say “then they talked about their family history for 3 more hours” whenever it comes up.
Regardless, the stated intent of the story was to relay his experiences with war. Not with any political system. The forces of sauron and saruman just represented war itself. The feeling of its inevitable March towards you no matter how much you don’t want it and dread it. It’s very much how I’ve been feeling lately.
Hobbits had a government and a class system. In Tolkien it’s divine monarchies all the way down, some are just God willed and others are… Technically also God willed, because the good guys need bad guys to stab, I guess.
I hope everyone here appreciates what a special moment this is. This has potential to be the most downvoted comment on Lemmy.
That comment somehow manages to be more divisive than the Palestinian conflict. A truly remarkable sequence of specious assertions that is guaranteed to piss off vast swathes of the population. Almost brings a tear to my eye
As a far left anarchist that loves Lord of the Rings I was very specifically offended
Did people forget what divisive means? I would say it’s exactly the opposite of divisive, it’s a comment that is produced as much singular unified reaction as you could possibly get.
I meant what I said. Most people disagree with the comment, but probably for a wide variety of reasons. It’s not a singular reaction, it’s multiple reactions to multiple insinuations that all happen to be questionable.
Yeah and I meant what I said that you don’t get what divisive actually means.
And you were incorrect.
It’s a bit sad for Lemmy if 76 downvotes gets you to such a status. But mixing an interpretation of Tolkien with an anti-left message might indeed be one of the best ways to get there.
You might enjoy my other greatest hit: https://suppo.fi/comment/3202858
Don’t worry, it’s 76 and counting.
It’s actually 88 total downvotes for a net score of -76 lol