I promise I am not a reactionary, but I am somewhat uneducated on the subject so I might say something offensive accidentally, sorry in advance about that.
So, does gender dysphoria stem from a disconnect between the body and some “gender socialization” function of the brain, which could be solved by getting socialized and treated by everyone as the correct gender from the start, or something that stems from a disconnect between the brain and the actual body parts and hormones, so the transition is needed to alleviate that, or both?
getting the wrong puberty doesn’t help with socialisation, sure. Also doesn’t help with forming or maintaining a congruent identity.
How others see my body can reinforce how I see it, but I didn’t change it for them.
Considering the amount of cisgender people who effectively get gender-affirming operations, there would probably still be transgender people taking hormones or getting gender-affirming surgery.
yes, T and its consequences were just as, if not more, responsible for my disconnect from my body as social issues. not everyone feels this way.
I think even in a society without the concept of gender, some people would experience bodily dysphoria that would be treatable by hormones and other methods.
There is dysphoria that stems from being misgendered and deadnamed, but in my case there also absolutely is some kind of physical disconnect where my brain is just running on the wrong OS when i’m on testosterone. I’m gonna CW the following for extensive descriptions of dysphoria and some NSFW stuff.
spoiler
It just fucked with me in the most horrible ways to not be on estradiole, i did not have the emotional responses to be truly happy or to fully function as a social being. It’s as if i didn’t have real feelings at all before HRT. Interestingly, i know transmasc people, people who go in the polar opposite direction of my transition, who felt the same shallow affect pre-transition, so it isn’t just “well woman hormones make you more emotional”. Before transition, i also had the worst body horror imaginable, living with the man stench on me, being covered in coarse hair, feeling the stubble on my face, it was a pure nightmare. No matter if anybody saw me, or if people could notice any of that. My body was a prison cell, and only transitioning could change that.
Then there’s the fact that i do not have the correct genitals for the sex life i want. That’s in spite of my partner being trans herself, treating me with all the care and respect i need and knowing better than anybody else how to make me feel like a woman. No amount of empathy and gender affirming behavior can replace that i can’t get properly fingered rn, not even the skill of somebody who can beat me off and make it feel as if i already have a clit. There’s just something that i lack before i go under the knife. Sorry for being so blunt, it’s just very, very obvious that i need a pussy, that my genitals are in the wrong configuration and need to be turned inside out, in spite of me knowing perfectly well that unoperated trans girls are perfectly valid, cute and hot af.
Not all trans people need to medically transition. And you can’t fix dysphoria by medical means alone, the fact that i am now increasingly comfortable in my own skin is dependent on a lot of deep reflection about gender roles, my relationship to my body and a bunch of really deep, really affirming experiences with my friend with benefits as well as me being on HRT for almost a year and having made good headway with laser hair removal. This stuff needs work, no matter how well you pass and how hot you look. You got to get your head in the right place and learn to accept yourself, overcome internalized transphobia and mysogyny, understand that trans bodies are beautiful etc. etc. But when people have intense body related dysphoria, it’s completely impossible to fix that without any medical means.
gender dysphoria would still exist. maybe some trans ppl would be fine but others not.
Social transition and body transition are related, but not necessarily connected. It is possible to do one without the other for different reasons.
I would still be on testosterone and absolutely would have still gotten a hysterectomy. I probably would have kept my tits though, they were cool. I miss them occasionally, but mostly I’m just glad they’re gone.
E feels fantastic. Would recommend.
I feel like if I don’t have a certain amount of estrogen in me I go completely insane and suicidal. So yeah, still would physically transition
Like even if estrogen did nothing to my body it would be vital for me to live
afaik this is a question science can not yet answer, but probably both to some extent
edit: please disregard everything below, i got emotional and said some really stupid shit, a good part of it against my own better knowledge i’m sorry, i’ll try not to do it in the future, but i probably will
I don’t know if we need to go so far as to invoke “science” when you can just ask trans people. Most of us have thought about this question at some point. The answer is, as with so much else, it depends on the person. Lots of us would still physically transition, even in a perfect world with no gender-based bigotry. Lots of us wouldn’t. Lots of us would change our bodies in some ways and not in others. Now sure, scientists could try and do surveys to see how common various gender-affirming procedures might be in such a hypothetical perfect world, but I have to say, I don’t really see why it matters. I just want a world where transition-related care is available to those who want it, when they want it, and not forced on those who don’t.
the question here is whenever being trans stems from the social environment, or whenever it is of biological origin. that is a question that is very hard to answer.
And what I’m saying is that I think we can answer this, by asking trans people about their experience of transness. There’s clearly a biological component to some gender feelings, because if there weren’t you wouldn’t have so many trans people talking about how much better they feel on hormones. But also, some gender feelings are clearly social, which is why so many trans people really, truly enjoy performing their chosen gender. And I just don’t see what more science can tell us here. That those of us who feel better on hormones aren’t imagining it, I guess? I suppose it would be nice to have proof of that that cis people can’t argue with, but they still will, because transphobia doesn’t come from a place of logic.
I guess, to sum up, I’m not in principle opposed to science being done to try to study transness, but I am also extremely wary of bad science being used to try to get rid of us, and anything trying to make a hard distinction between transness being social or biological seems quite dangerous to me.
you are by no means wrong, but there is a lack of empirical research in this field. that is all that i want to say really. i absolutely agree that it is both, but we aren’t some idiots who just go off what sounds right, we do science to know what is right. and that is really hard to do. and that means i won’t just say it is that, if i don’t have or partially lack empirical prove that it actually is.
Empirical research in this field is just asking trans people. That’s all there is to it, you cannot measure how much gender dysphoria somebody feels any other way. We are talking about phenomena that are entirely internal, and exclusively experienced by us, how we feel about them and how we express them is the absolute only way to research them, and is what you’ll find in any paper on reduction of dysphoric symptoms that holds up to scientific standards, whether you’re looking into studies that show how social context affects trans wellbeing or how medical treatment affects trans wellbeing. It’s always “ok, let’s make a questionaire and ask trans people what works”. All approaches to understand us while at the same time ignoring what we have to say have failed to yield results that have held upt to critical review, just ask all the idiots who tried to explain our existence away as a “paraphilia”. Cis people need to come to grips with the terms that is us and us alone who are the authorities on trans issues and how to treat us. There is no alternative to this and this is simply not negotiable, not after decades of ignorance and outright hostility and demonstrable, human rights violating mistreatment from the psychiatric establishment. We demand the exclusive say on how to live our lifes, because you cissies have no understanding of this. None. I’m sorry to say this, but you people don’t get it and that you don’t get it has killed way too many of us, we won’t have that any longer.
Sorry to harp on this, I know you’re not making a big or strong claim, so it probably feels like I’m being extra nitpicky. Nevertheless, I’m going to push back a bit on what it seems to me that you’re saying.
When you say “we aren’t some idiots who just go off what sounds right, we do science to know what is right”, I take that to mean that you want better evidence than what I’ve provided before you are willing to say with certainty that transness has both biological and social aspects. I wonder, then, what evidence you would accept. What kind of studies need to be done for you to agree that transness can be both biological and social, in different measures for different people? Please really think about this. If trans people saying “hormones make me feel different, and better” isn’t good enough evidence that sometimes some aspects of transness are biological, what is? If trans people saying “I love having short/long hair and wearing suits/dresses” isn’t strong enough evidence that sometimes some aspects of transness are social, what is?
Here’s the reason I’m harping on this: we live in an extremely transphobic society and that transphobia often manifests in people implying, or even outright stating, that trans people are wrong about ourselves. Any science done to try to understand transness needs to start from a place of believing what trans people say about ourselves, and because we’re not there yet as a society, I’m deeply wary of any so-called “science” that gets done about us.
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and well, for example the positive mental effects of hrt can be reasonably well explained by social/psychological factors. the confidence boost, zhe certainty that things are getting better, the knowledge that change is finally comming etc. are a reasonable explanation too.
Not in my experience, no. Because when I started testosterone, I planned to just stay on long enough for my voice to drop. I didn’t want to have to do weekly injections for the rest of my life, so I fully planned to go off T after a few months. After a little while I decided I’d stay on T at least until I had a hysterectomy so that I could avoid dealing with a period ever again. But after my hysterectomy, I did indeed go off T, for approximately 4 months. I wanted to give it a good go, so I stayed off until I hadn’t had any hot flashes for several weeks, at which point I was quite sure that my endocrine system had stabilized. I felt awful. Just, so fucking bad. It’s hard to explain how much worse life was without T. I wish I still had access to the hexbear account I had at that point so I could link you some of my posts from that time. It affected everything, my mood, my energy levels, my appetite, my orgasms. Everything was just muted, I was constantly on the verge of tears, I couldn’t stop clenching my jaw. And you know what? I recognized this feeling. It felt like I was back in middle school. It felt the same as the first time my system flooded with estrogen.
So sure, we could do a study where we take trans people off their hormones and see how miserable they are. Sure, we could do that, and I think it would be pretty dang revealing, but I don’t think we should, because I’d never wish that misery on anyone else.
but there is a lack of empirical research in this field.
how do you propose to get such a study past IRB? there was a kid who had his genitals destroyed by a botched circumcision and he was very unsuccessfully raised as a girl. I don’t think you’re going to find people willing to do double blind placebo controlled hormone injections on kids at random or do literally anything involving feral children, and if you do find such a person please kill them.
edit: some letters
well maybe because there is other ways to answer that question? such as analyzing the brains structure and searching for the diferences between trans and cis people? studys of the psychological state of trans people before and after transition? children aren’t even that usefull here
These brain scans that transmedicalists harp on about simply show that there is no difference between a trans woman and a cis woman on an organic level, but not in the way that they are imagining. There is no “female brain”, neurological differences between genders are not absolutes, they are clusters. There are traits more common in women than men, but no two women have the same arrangements of these traits and all of these are found in men as well. It’s all just one big, messy spectrum. Trans people fall on the end of the sprectrum that more closely matches our gender identity, not our assigned gender at birth, that’s nice i guess, but it’s also really, really meaningless and has done nothing to explain an ethiology of transness or to improve trans healthcare. Like, it has literally done zero in that regard, whereas just asking trans people “are you happy with HRT?” produces pretty clear evidence that yes, almost all of us are, gender affirming care is clinically demonstrable to be fucking effective. Deal with it.
Buddy, you are (unintentionally, I’m sure) repeating some fairly transphobic talking points. How would you feel about a study analyzing the brain structure of gay people to try and search for differences between gay and straight people? Does that seem like a good study to you? Also, your response to silent_water is doing exactly what I hoped you weren’t doing when I wrote my last comment to you, namely, you’re saying that a trans person telling you to your face that hormones make them feel better, so there must be some biological component to transness sometimes might be, what? Mistaken? Lying? Or maybe you just think that my (and silent_water’s) physical response to hormones is somehow mediated through culture? That is the non-transphobic reading of what you’ve said, but if that’s what you believe you’re going to have to bring forth some evidence that someone’s physical response to a change of hormones could be solely cultural. Because I do not see any possibility that a change to someone’s endocrine balance would feel different based purely on social factors.
no it isn’t. this is a question trans people answer for themselves daily. every trans person has a slightly different answer but that doesn’t negate the fact that there is an individual answer for each person. there’s no need to mystify this.
how can you tell why you are trans? you can now that you are trans, but honestly the claim that you know whenever the structure of your brain, or the way you were socialised are more importend in it, is pretty new to me.
I know what my body feels like when I forget to take my estradiol shot. I know what it felt like before I started taking it in the first place.
And capital-S Science has a long enough history of completely ignoring us or trying to make us fit into little cis-centric boxes that I don’t care what it says about us and our origin, to the degree that Science is even looking into that for a reason besides eugenics.
because when my T levels spike above a certain level, I know before I’ve even gotten a blood test to confirm. I go straight into depression, suicidality, etc… and yes, I’ve confirmed with blood tests that I’m correct. E makes me happy but I can’t live with T in my system - it’s literally either me or the T. I knew I was trans long before I had my T suppressed and started E but it was hormone therapy that confirmed it for me beyond a shadow of a doubt. even if there were a magical brain scan that would show with 100% accuracy whether or not I were trans, I wouldn’t take it - I already know I’m trans. the only purpose of such a test is to gatekeep people - especially non-binary people - out of the trans community. I do not give an iota of a fuck why someone calls themselves trans. if they tell me they are, they are. no other criteria matters in the slightest.
strongly recommend backing away from the transmed shit, it’s just a parasitic worm intended for your brain.
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Thanks for the answers, I guess I will make another question. Do non-binary people have those mismatches as well, or it’s pretty much neurodivergent people who can’t fit the gender roles that are asked from them and express themselves differently? I am a ND cis male and I don’t fit with most men (too aggressive for no reason, and I am not really masculine in personality) so I can kind of understand why someone wouldn’t want to conform to their gender, but I wonder if there is a biological component to it
There’s all kinds of nonbinary identities, the term is more like a catch-all category and not at all like a distinct “third gender.” And how to approach physical changes varies as much among nonbinary people as our understanding of gender. There’s nonbinary people who differ from cis people mostly in how they view themselves and gender and who do not transition at all. There’s nonbinary transfems like me who go by she / her exclusively, present feminine, who can best describe themselves as women to the average cis person and who require the full range of medical procedures that you’d classically think of when picturing your average trans woman, yet our relation to our gender is actually a deeply nonbinary one that’s closest to the understanding of these lesbians who view “lesbian” not as a sexuality, but a gender indentity. I even know an afab person who is nonbinary / agender, goes by gender neutral pronouns, has a very androgynous style (think butch lesbian, but with cutting edge makeup and hairstyling skills) yet dey underwent the full range of laser hair removal because in spite of being afab, dey used to sport more facial hair than your average cis guy and where very much not happy with that. Then there’s forms of bottom surgery whose entire point it is to create ambiguous genitals, like penile-preserving vaginoplasty, or phalloplasty without a vaginectomy, and these are mostly (but not exclusively) requested by nonbinary people. I know enbie transmasc people who adjust their low dose testosterone regimen to just masculinize themselves in specific ways (like lowering their voice, but not getting bottom growth), a ton of transmasc enbies undergo mastectomies, there’s transfem enbies who only go on estradiole until they’ve grown boobs and then stop and go back to living on testosterone. There’s all kinds of possibilities for gender affirming care, i honestly think we’ve only just begun to see what’s possible because nonbinary people were gatekept from transitioning for such a long time.
Yes, nonbinary people can also have bodily “mismatches”, for want of a better word. I’m agender and socially I very much don’t fit into either the “man” or “woman” category. But my physical transition has looked almost exactly identical to that of a binary trans man, and I’m now comfortable with my body in a way I didn’t know was possible before I started transitioning. That being said, I don’t always get gendered male by strangers, and I’m glad for it. I like being a little androgynous.
Also, not every nonbinary person is neurodivergent. It’s totally possible to be neurotypical and still nonbinary.
Keep in mind that nonbinary doesn’t just mean one thing, it’s an umbrella. I’m both nonbinary and a woman (I like to say that my internal identity is neither man nor woman but politically I’m a woman).
But yes, despite being nonbinary I still have a lot of physical dysphoria. I need estradiol to not feel like my body is always in a low-grade state of panic, and I feel bottom dysphoria very strongly. But there are people, binary and nonbinary, who have none of those physical feelings of dysphoria and that doesn’t change their identities
Would you still transition if society treated you as the correct gender from the start?
I think there’s a strong connection between the gender society treats me and the gender I am. For me they’re close to being the same thing.
If you want to dive into this further I’d really suggest reading “transgender marxism” which is a collection of essays by trans communists
