Just watched the Boy Boy video on George Bush’s Masterclass, and they made me think about which U.S. President was actually worse.
I feel like while bush was a much worse president then most people realize, with some of his policies and things like the patriot act still in effect and gumming up the works, trump did more damage in erroding the facade of democracy and empowering fanatics
Exactly: Bush pushed through evil policy that eroded rights and committed war crimes and such, but Trump attacked the very structure of the government.
Bush was bad in the way most world leaders and governments are, trump was impeached twiced and faced no consequences.
It’s pretty clear from all the responses here that the view is massively different depending on if you’re from the US, or not.
I’m not from the US - and Bush massively and irrevocably messed up a lot of things for me. And I’m just in the EU, not directly getting bombed by US military.
With Trump the consequences were pretty much all inside of the US, any fallout we felt over here were still from the Bush era, or to some extent Obama. Given all the damage that was done by those two maybe the structure of your government over there is shit and should be attacked - my hope from over here was that the whole Trump situation would lead to finally stuff getting fixed. It won’t be pretty for you guys - but from the outside I’d rather have someone incompetent like Trump mess up your stuff until the pain is big enough to actually do something than someone halfway competent break things on a global scale again.
There’s no comparison. Bush has a much higher body count and was a more effective imperialistic mass-murderer. He certainly did his part to empower fanatics – the wAr oN tErROr got all those racist bloodthirsty chuds baying for blood. As for eroding the facade of democracy, I don’t know what you can call stealing the 2000 election and then ramming through unpopular wars other than proof that America has never been a democracy.
Bush did immense permanent damage – the millions dead by his policies and the aftershocks will never come back to life.
Trump just rode the wave.
People who think Trump was as bad or worse than Bush are just telling on themselves that they don’t think nonwhite people living outside the imperial core are fully human.
Which is a good thing. Liberals pretending Bush wasn’t so bad, is what is going to allow fascism to win.
Speaking as a Canadian, the Bush presidency was certainly wince-inducing. I was genuinely surprised he got re-elected after that clusterfuck of a first term. By the end of the 2nd, I was fairly convinced the best days of America were behind it.
But the difference between him and Trump is the wounds were more self-inflicted on the country with Bush. Still not great for Canada, whose fortunes rise and fall on what happens on the other side of the border.
But Trump had a genuine animosity for freedom-loving, democracy-respecting American allies and a love for oppressive dictatorships. He tore up trade agreements, levelled tariffs, etc. against Canada and Europe while advancing diplomacy in person in the likes of North Korea.
And on a more social level, he poisoned public discourse and stoked right-wing authoritarianism all over the world. I have family members I can’t talk to anymore. And the lunatic fringe came out of the woodwork under his term. We even had a mosque shooter here in Canada who was quite candid about Trump being his inspiration.
Within the US, Americans hate Americans with a passion. What a mess. Another civil war is not out of the question. As such, I am coming down on Trump being far, far worse.
Thank you for your perspective.
“no brainer” said one paper the morning after.
Even worse, George W. Bush’s 2004 reelection was the only time a Republican president has won the popular vote since the Cold War.
deleted by creator
Bush was like a bad bout of alcoholism, bad, but treatable. Trump was like doing two kilos of fentanyl at once.
I agree with lots of what you said, but lots not pretend like Quebec doesn’t already have an existing culture of Islamophobia and racism.
I think all those things are good. Trump didn’t cause any of those, he exposed them to naive liberals like you.
I think Trump will have done the most damage when the dust settles. We’ve had almost 20 years to see the effects Bush had on our country but only about 3 years since Trump left office. He packed the Supreme Court, made people proud to be racists, destroyed our electoral system, gutted the EPA, sold our secrets to our enemies, and made fascism popular.
Bush started a war in which US massacred over 6 million people. It’s absolutely incredible how Americans absolutely don’t give a shit about all the atrocities their deplorable regime does around the globe
According to the WHO, nearly 7 million people worldwide have died to date due to COVID-19. Aside from just mortality, COVID-19 has caused massive shockwaves across economic systems across the world that irreversibly impacted hundreds of millions of people. I won’t pretend all of COVID deaths were caused by Trump, but you can bet your ass that a significant number of them, my personal extended family included, died because he politicized the virus and treated it like it was no big deal.
Blaming covid on Trump is quite the stretch given that there was no tangible difference between the approach that Trump and Biden admins took towards handling the pandemic. The media just stopped reporting the deaths on daily basis when democrats got into power. US deaths account for around 1.1 million, and a large portion of those deaths happened under democrats.
The reason people died was due to lack of a social safety net, lack of sick days, lack of free healthcare, and so on. Saying that people died because Trump politicized the virus is frankly nonsensical.
deleted by creator
I agree with a lot of what you say but our electoral system was fkd way before him. People were already proud of being racist he just gave them a microphone. The EPA still gets me though. We have been moving more and more to a fascist government for years now since the event of 2001 when we gave up privacy for security.
I think it’s more what happened under the cover of Trump, ie what Republicans do, which is where the damage was in Trump’s presidency. He was basically a smokescreen and scapegoat for all manner of interests, but as an individual almost completely vapid aside from his narcissistic drive for attention, which all mainstream politics was more than happy to provide him with.
After Bush’s presidency I thought “Phew, glad that’s over. I bet that’s the worst president I’ll experience in my lifetime.” After nine months of Trump in office I was longing for the good old days of Dubya and Chainsaw Cheney.
This also leads me to believe Trump is the worst American president we’ve seen so far.
Exactly. Imagine how bad it would have been if he were competent. Someone who combines his ideology and rhetoric with actual competence is undoubtedly festering somewhere.
deleted by creator
Bush was an absolute monster, but Trump literally broke brains. America will never be the same.
Not an American but Trump was far more embarrassing to your international reputation than Bush. They’re both 2 of the worst presidents you’ve ever had but Trump is a whole different level of shitty. He’s like fascist shitty, whereas Bush was neo-con shitty.
Also not American. People who were anti-bush had at least some kind of greater belief about capitalism, politics, etc. Literally everyone knew trump was a buffoon.
As an American, Bush is so much less bad than Trump to me that I find this question confusing. It’s so obvious that Trump is the worst thing that’s ever happened to the US. He literally attempted to overthrow an election to stay in power.
No other president has come close to that. It’s an absolute joke that Bush is considered in the same breadth.
Another Trump term could very likely be the last presidential election we have or it could result in another attempted coup. How fucking scary is that?
Bush actually stole the election lol
Yeah but he didn’t incite an insurrection like Trump did.
deleted by creator
There’s at least a veneer of legitimacy over the Florida supreme court deciding to award the state’s votes to Bush in 2000. Does it suck and should it be fixed? Yes. Was it illegal and dangerous to democracy? No, or at least not as bad as Jan 6 and the other crimes Trump and friends committed to try to steal the 2020 election.
Found another liberal who thinks decorum is the most important part of the political system. The veneer of legitimacy is MUCH worse then the obvious flailing of someone who lost.
Found the liberal. Sorry the worst thing to have ever happened to you was trump being mean on the internet. I’m sure Millions of Iraqis understand your pain.
He’s like fascist shitty, whereas Bush was neo-con shitty.
Corporate would like you to find the difference between these two pictures.
Look they both don’t fall far from the shit tree, but the political philosophy nerd in me still does think there’s some key points of difference. And these points of difference are useful in recognising and responding to fascist ideology because it’s inherently parasitic and spreads by latching itself onto other ideas. That’s why you can have things like eco-fascism and atheist fascism, which don’t traditionally align with conservatism. Umberto Eco actually outlines the specifics of fascism and how it’s a uniquely shitty ideology that can work it’s way into any dark corner of complex human societies.
deleted by creator
Bush was the worse president, Trump is the worse person.
I can see a lot of potential presidents in 2001 act the same way as Bush did, especially any other Republican. Even Gore would have gone to war in Afghanistan. Unless of course we go down the rabbit hole of could he have prevented the 9/11 attacks. The Iraq war probably would have been avoided under Gore.
But I don’t see any other president doing the same damages that Trump did. While the current status of the Republican Party has many people just as bad as Trump, I don’t think they would have the same traction today without Trump.
And let’s not forget the worst of Trump was prevented. If his coup would have succeeded, he would even be the worse president.
Yeah, the worst of Trump isn’t limited to what political actions he took as President, but also the wider cultural impact he directly spawned, escalated and continues to propogate even outside of office. He contributed so much to this cultural shift that has provided legitimacy to crooks, crackpots, and literal nazis. And worse, he’s pushed the Republican party to coddle those people, capitulate to their whims, promote their voices, and endorse their views and elections. Not that the Republican party had been respectable in a generation, but 20 years ago, they weren’t publically allied with open fascists, far-right militia groups and domestic terrorists. They are now, though.
Potentially? Trump. Factually? Bush. However, to be honest, the American political system seems to be fucked up to the point it doesn’t resemble a democracy. Currently, their population suffers from this situation with poverty, addiction to drugs, a corrupt healthcare system, inability to own a home, shitty jobs, etc. So, it really doesn’t matter too much which one is worse. Biden or nobody else can fix this from within. But yeah, a second term of Trump would be definitely catastrophic and would compete with Bush’s levels of destruction. Right now, the only thing containing Trump is his short term period in power.
The most depressing and convincing theory I’ve read about the state of American democracy is Sarah Kendzior’s book “They Knew”.
The tl;dr is that the US is ungovernable. The ruling classes don’t have the will to fix the economic and cultural divides that split the country and there’s an unspoken understanding between them all that the only way is down.
So they’re letting it run its course, letting the weakest fall into the gears and skimming off what wealth they can, to insulate themselves from the inevitable chaos.
deleted by creator
I like Gaslit nation.
Trump tried to start a civil war, overthrow democracy, and install himself as king. Trumpism is tearing the country apart and trying so very hard to burn it all down. There’s no contest.
*Another different way to word it: Bush made terrible decisions. Trump wants to burn it all down.
deleted by creator
When talking about who was worse we can’t just look at the atrocities. But for America specifically Trump is worse. Bush was just another crooked politician fueling the war machine. Trump tried to take over after he lost. Technically bush did his job, Trump tried to burn the store down for not renewing a contract.
Covid killed a lot of people - millions of them. It’s not a war, but Trump’s management of covid resulted in a lot of unnecessary deaths.
Afghanistan was UN sanctioned, Iraq was the one that was not.
Now let’s think about how many people would have died if Trump succeeded. Worldwide even as more right wing mobs tried to overthrow their countries and Putin would run even more unchecked.
deleted by creator
Bush was worse for the world, Trump was worse for the US.
That remains to be seen. Ukraine is largely Trump’s fault, and flushing all the progress made with Iran will have consequences for decades
How is Putin deciding to invade Ukraine (which he started in 2014 btw) largely Trumps fault?
The most likely argument I see is that Trump severely strained diplomatic bonds both between North America and Europe and also within North America and Europe. Additionally, he heralded in a new degree of isolationist policy and created doubt about the resilience of NATO. Furthermore, he tried to blackmail the Ukrainian government.
In summary: Not his fault directly but his politics led to a situation where Russia/Putin saw it as likely that they could invade without facing significant backlash from Europe + North America. That probably would have worked out as well if Ukraine had folded within the first couple of weeks. The argument is essentially that by convincing Russia that they could get Ukraine without significant consequences, his administration contributed to the invasion happening.
Make of that argument what you will. Personally, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say “Trumps fault”, but reasonable to think that another administration might have been able to deter the invasion.
I’m genuinely curious.
So, Obamas fault?
One attacked an innocent nation, the other attacked their own people.
Depends on the metric. Direct threat to democracy, increasing violence and dangerr for millions of Americans, harming economic futures for Americans, etc.: probably Trump.
Sheer body count: maybe Bush, but don’t forget about all the people who would still be alive or more healthy if Trump had not actively sabotaged COVID response.
Okay I’m back to Trump.
Bush is objectively worse on every level. They’re both terrible and the people in their administrations were both soulless gouls. However, Bush’s administration was far more effective in carrying out their repugnant agenda.
People will say Trump tried to steal an election. That’s true. But Bush ACTUALLY stole the election in 2000. Bush also gave us 2 wars which killed in total over a million people and led to the rise of ISIS. Trump’s admin tried it’s best to get the US into a war with Iran but couldn’t make it happen. Bush’s administration also helped get the US into the Great Recession from which the American working class has never truly recovered. Trump doesn’t hold a candle to the kind of damage Bush inflicted on the US and world.
How did bush steal the election?
deleted by creator
Worse for the world? Bush. Worse for America? Trump. But I don’t really care about America so Bush from me.
Worse for the world? Bush
I’ll just leave this here:
Covid global deaths: 6.5 million (aside from the million+ in the US I doubt Trumps handling caused more than half)
War on Terror: 4.5 million deaths in the wars. 38 million people displaced/refugees.
I stand with the assessment that Bush was far worse for the world.
You also have to consider that 100% of the war deaths were actively done with intent while spreading COVID was more passive and the result of a lot of idiots ignoring good practice. One is negligence, while the other is malice.
spreading COVID was more passive and the result of a lot of idiots ignoring good practice. One is negligence, while the other is malice.
When world leaders like Trump (1) ignore pandemic planning, (2) lie about the seriousness and gravity of the situation during the crucial early days and weeks of the pandemic, (3) turn pandemic precautions and public safety measures into just another pointless item in their culture war, and (4) spend just about every waking moment scapegoating scientists, fomenting conspiracy theories, and intentionally muddying the waters, it’s can no longer be considered “negligence”.
Right from the guy at the top, the Trump administration made calculated political decisions and came up with talking points that actively made COVID-19 worse, and we are still feeling the effects of it today. The pandemic may be “over” when it comes to public policy, but an incalculable number of people all over the world are still having health problems as a result of the virus (which is now endemic to humanity), and we are still very much in the middle of the economic fallout with still no end in sight.
Whether COVID was worse than the War on Terror is debatable and subjective (I’m not exactly a fan of either, frankly), but there’s no doubt in my mind that the effects of COVID on global health and economics were much more wide-spread.
How is trump guilty for covid deaths in other countries?
Listen, I’m not really into quantifying human suffering like that, so let’s just suffice to say that both Trump and Bush were fucking terrible human beings who did lasting damage to the world.
It’s also very much worth noting that Trump was a willing and active participant in American wars in the Middle East, and he did so with impunity and with less accountability than his predecessors. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/22/obama-drones-trump-killings-count/ (Plus he assassinated an Iranian general in Iraq without the knowledge and consent of the Iraqi government, which is arguably a war crime and could have easily escalated into a war with Iran.)
Yes I’m aware of this. But most of the world fell down on the response plan. He just fell down harder.
Also, it’s such a uniquely North American thing to downplay the invasion of other countries. They went in after 9/11, using a terrorist attacking as an excuse to use war tactics known as “shock and awe” MOAB bombing to make the CITIZENS feel helpless while they literally went and privatized their entire resource economy so that it would go to foreign businesses. Do you understand what that means for a country? How absolutely fucked up that is?
Also, it’s such a uniquely North American thing to downplay the invasion of other countries.
(a) I’m not downplaying the invasion of other countries, so right off the bat you’re mischaracterizing what I’m saying.
If anything, you are downplaying Trump’s involvement in American wars in the Middle East, which he may not have started, but he was certainly a willing participant in them. Droning people with impunity and less accountability than ever before, and even assassinating an Iranian general in January 2020–an act that could have very easily escalated into a direct conflict with Iran and its allies.
Also it’s funny that you bring up the MOAB, because from what I remember it was Trump, not Bush, who dropped the MOAB on Afghanistan in 2017; resulting in the largest single explosive attack by America since the dropping of the atomic bombs during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Nangarhar_airstrike
(b) Downloading invasions is very obviously not a “uniquely North American thing”. See: Russian downplaying of the invasion of Ukraine, Japan downplaying the history of their invasions of Asia, British attitudes towards imperialism and the pillaging of cultural artifacts from all over the world, Chinese annexation of Tibet and the literal filtering of information regarding it, and so on for all of human history.
Trump and Bush were both awful presidents and human beings, but I maintain that Trump was worse for America, for democracy, and for the Earth.
deleted by creator
George W Bush certainly caused more deaths, was just as decisive and is the reason Trump was allowed to happen. OK, so he’s got a bit more of a charming personality and gives Michelle Obama candy sometimes, but that doesn’t absolve him. Doesn’t absolve Trump either, he’s a loud mouthed buffoon who tried to start a Civil War. He has followers who will literally do anything he tells them to do. The idea of him having a second term absolutely terrifies me.
Also… No other POTUS has fucked up so many diplomatic relations as Trump did.
When George W Bush did it you at least knew it was part of a planned strategy…
George W Bush certainly caused more deaths
That’s debatable. Trump’s handling of the pandemic was atrocious. >1 million Americans dead under his watch. Worse than any other 1st world nation.
