I didn’t used to understand foreign involvement in wars, like the whole America-Vietnam shenanigans. But I can see why after watching this Israeli Palestine Conflict since birth.
But now it’s like watching two children fighting over who’s sandcastles can be built in the sandbox. And what do we do if children can’t learn to share? You take away everything and no one is happy.
So is that what this is going to come to? Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?
This is a really patronising take.
Imagine if your country was ‘donated’ to a whole other group of people, they took over, murdered people, took your home, tortured your grandparents, you’re going to be mad. It’s not ‘childish’, it’s reality.
The whole Levant area has seen so many blood-soaked conquests that any claim of ‘proper’ or ‘original’ owners is wilfully and maliciously ignorant. This is also the case for pretty much every bit of solid ground. Your desire to return things to “how they were” is just you picking your fave point on a timeline of history.
Not what I said in the slightest. Current residents were and still are being displaced.
Take my own house as an example, who lived here originally? Probably some celts. Who lived here before me? Fuck knows, but they left and it tranferred to me.
If someone decided to donate my house to someone else would I be mad? Fuck yes.
So Hamas is killing Israelis who live there right now and trying to steal their houses. They should be mad as fuck and retaliate. No?
Or are you suggesting they have not lived there long enough?
You seem confused. No Israeli houses are being stolen. Hamas or representatives of them killed around 200 people at a recent event. In the same period Israel has killed 500 people, including nearly 100 children.
There is a war occurring, and people will be involved in the fighting. However this is an America funded army with bombs and planes against a few groups that are mostly using rocks.
This is a breakdown of the resources available - https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/this-is-the-imbalance-of-power-between-israel-and-palestine-in-real-terms-46651
Israel have decided that they want the gaza strip, and are blanket bombing with the explicit goal of eliminating the population there. It’s brutal.
Civilians will get killed when you use them as shields. And please don’t try and tell me Hamas is not using them as shields.
Also don’t try and tell me Hamas is not indiscriminately sending rockets into Israel. I feel bad for the 50 percent of Palestinians who do not support Hamas but I don’t feel as bad for those that do.
Oh you’re deep into Israeli propaganda. Israel bomb schools and refugee centres and defend themselves by claiming that Hamas were there and ‘using the children as human shields’. The funny thing is, when they go through the dead, they never find these Hamas fighters. It’s almost as if they’re murdering children just to punish Palestinians.
Read the article. Hamas have very few rockets, dozens maybe, and even those have short ranges. Bombing Israeli settlements is rare.
The celts were actually just so good at genocide that they fully displaced the people before them in most places they live now…
Trying to find the “original owners” of anything is stupid as history doesn’t go back that far, so as you say we just need to look at current residents
Issue is, currently Jews are being displaced from their homes to Israel and Palestinians are being displaced by them, so there’s underlying issues that need to be solved first
Nobody is trying to find the ‘original owners’, it’s not relevant at all.
Jews are not being displaced from their homes. People currently moving to Israel are moving by choice, and kicking families out of their homes to do so.
Importantly mostly the people stayed after those conquests though. They were given Greek influence, then Christianized by the Roman empire and held the major Christian center of Antioch, then they were culturally Arabized by Muslim conquests. The main caveats to that rule were the Roman Jewish deportations. Largely, the DNA of the ancient peasants and the current inhabitants is the same.
Palestine was never a country…
The entire levant was part of the Ottoman Empire.
You are really missing the point here
You are speaking from an incredible place of privilege. You’re nation had one of the most successful expansionist genocides in history. The reason there is still conflict in that region is because Israel’s expansionist genocide is WIP.
That expansionist genocide you are referring to must be the indigenous peoples of North America, correct?
Which is funny since the guy in the video was an Italian-American posing as an American native.
If there’s a people that know about expansionist genocide, it’s the Italians.
Carthago deleda est?
(amongst a very long list of localities)
I gotta be honest, if you ever want to make a point land with anyone, starting with “… privilege” is about one of the worst ways to do it. It’s just an insult: you have such a cushie life that you can’t conceive of whatever.
And then, given the opportunity, you should probably actually answer their question instead of simply condescending.
Are you really tone policing me when OP is calling people children and infants? I’m also very privileged, I’m not trying to own OP, just trying to point out the origins of their beliefs. Their situation isn’t due to a lack of barbarism, it’s due to successful barbarism. It’s not even all in the past, the US commits atrocities every decade, and has its own border crisis.
They are correct in saying I’m privileged, being a middle class white American male is 100% an advantage in life. Doesn’t mean I can’t conceptualize feelings from a different viewpoint.
North America went from undeveloped to world leader in what, 300 years? Israel and Palestine have been habitated by humans more than 6000 years. Both equidistant from European hubs of industry and innovation.
So the fact it hasn’t developed into a world leading pair of nations is on the people.
Israel and Palestine have been habitated by humans more than 6000 years.
So the fact it hasn’t developed into a world leading pair of nations is on the people.
Dumbest shit I’ve ever read. What do you think about Africa, oh enlightened adult? Africa’s been inhabited for over 100,000 years. Is their lack of development “on the people” too?
Please educate yourself, you’re embarrassing yourself and your people.
The US is just as propagandized as Russia and China and it shows.
A country with no involvement in world war 2 had its land taken as reparation for world war 2.
Britain was definitely involved in WW2 and controlled the territory Israel and Palestine are fighting over at the time. The Italians bombed two Mandatory Palestine cities during the war because the area was considered British.
Hell, Jewish immigration into the area had been going on for decades when the second world war broke out, regardless of whether the area was in Ottoman control or under British rule.
Palestinian soldiers also fought with the British against the Nazis.
But none of this involvement is making it any more fair that Palestinians had to pay for the Holocaust. If anything, the opposite.
Yeah you lose me at stuff like ‘controlled the territory’. It was palestinians living there, not British.
The British empire controlled a lot of regions of the world and they didn’t do it by establishing big population bases everywhere.
You’re conflating ‘country’ and ‘people’ then. The ‘country’ that gave up the land had this flag: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/2560px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
I care about the people
You’re the one who said “country”.
As for the people, their claim to the territory is about as valid as the Israeli claim to the Kingdom of Israel. Palestine hasn’t been independent for centuries, it has been a province under someone else’s control for countless centuries, and when attempts were made to split the area up into indivual autonomous states, the proposed solutions were struck down every time.
None of this “but I was there first” bickering is helping anyone.
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Youre making me hate your side more and more for the complete disregard of uprooting people that were already living there, guilty of nothing. Yes, they were there first, and then were exiled. You wanna get exiled from your own country? No fucking empathy
I’m not advocating for anyone to be uprooted, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis. Both sides are living on the land right now, and neither can be kicked out without causing a humanitarian crisis somewhere and a NATO-Arab war somewhere else.
Israel is wrong by continually expanding their territory beyond agreed upon boundaries and should step the fuck back. That doesn’t change anything about the history of Palestine, though.
Yeah, youre advocating that Palestinians could be uprooted because they were under british control. People not involved in WW2 were uprooted and their homes given to jewish refugees. That happened, thats why palestinians are pissed, and now israel is just perpetuating more of the same. It never should have happened, those refugees shouldve been returned home where they could, taken in by allies, or if they absolutely had to have their own country give them land from germany or any country responsible for exiling their jewish population.
I think everybody, save for some Israeli extremists, agrees that this should have never happened. The Israeli denial of the ethnic cleansing that took place is terrible and they need to get over themselves and admit fault. The people who would come to form the state of Israel fought the British first, it’s not like they just gave up land to the Jews. In fact, up to and during WW2, the British kept down Jewish immigration to appease the Arab states whose help they needed in the war, to the point where the UN’s predecessor stepped in because that was against the terms of the mandate giving them control over the region in the first place. In true British fashion, when they saw that the area was too big of a mess to manage, and ran away, leaving the fighting powers to their own devices, and escalating the conflict.
However, when all of this went down, WW2 was over. The Palestine war and the many armed conflicts after is started two years after WW2 had gone by. In fact, the peace that followed WW2 was one of the main reasons for the British to even abandon their colonies: everyone in the UK was sick of fighting and the country didn’t have the resources to keep that many colonies under control, let alone the desire.
But now you’re advocating for uprooting millions of people from the homes they grew up in. Look at the age graph of the populations of both Israel and Palestine, the people who were actually involved way back when form a small sliver of the population. Over 700,000 people were displaced by the Zionists, but now displacing over 9,364,000 people in revenge isn’t a solution.
Are you referring to the British Empire (who was a victor of WW2) or the Ottoman Empire (who no longer existed)?
Well it was WWI in the first place, and the levant was part of the Ottoman Empire which was part of the central powers and did take part in the war.
I know there was zionist migration beforehand, but israel as a state was established after ww2.
Stupid take.
Why?
Because conservative religious people are insane, and that region involves three different and conflicting religions.
If suddenly you snapped your fingers and the entire region/world became irreligious, peace would exist there within a generation or so.
That’s not going to happen, so it’s going to continue to be a clusterfuck for as long as any large groups of people believe a magical being in the sky has destined the state of the region to be a given thing without compromise.
I think the cycle is something like this Assholes want power over others > they invent religion, which conveniently gives them power > stupid people, content being told what to do accept religious bullshit > said stupid people push religion on their children > new crop of credulous people is raised > assholes want power over said idiots >… Religion… > stupid people, content being told what to do accept religious bullshit…
It’s a bit more complicated than that, as typically religion developed initially as an adaptive social evolution.
For example, early attempts at transitioning to agriculture failed because of a lack of sanitary practices, so disease ran rampant. Much later on when the transition happened again, it was around societies that had developed ideas around the importance of burying the dead, or burning the leftover parts of butchered meats “for the gods.”
What you see more is evidence of alterations to religions in order to protect authoritarianism.
A good example of this is Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
The foundational ritual is one where when there was an unknown murder, the elders of the closest town needed to sacrifice one of its cows. From a sociological standpoint, this created a communal shared cost on unsolved murders occurring.
But notice what happens in 21:5.
Literally in the middle of the elders standing in the water breaking the neck of the cow, the priests - sons of Levi - show up to remind everyone that they are the ones chosen to perform rituals and pronounce judgement. And then in the very next line we’re back to the elders and the cow in the water.
This line was probably a later addition to an earlier elder-driven ritual following a social shift to a priesthood based on ancestry controlling the religion.
There’s a ton of things like this.
So religious practices developed from causes ranging from OCD to social evolution, and then those practices eventually get reworked to support the authorities, and then the continued survival of those religions tend to reinforce authoritarianism even after the original authorities are long dead.
it’s like watching two children fighting over who’s sandcastles can be built in the sandbox
Welcome to war.
And what do we do if children can’t learn to share? You take away everything and no one is happy.
So is that what this is going to come to? Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?
That would be nice… only there are no adults.
PS: any adults 👽 out there… whenever you’re ready, we welcome you 🛸
Yep. OP is wanting other children to take things away from the children. I wonder how that’d turn out. Definitely not with just more children fighting over the sandbox, right?
This mental image puts a whole new spin on the word “infantry”.
That’s good
I’m more on the lines of Gorjira erupting from the bowels of the earth and just chowing down on anyone who doesn’t play nice.
I was thinking of a nuke on the USA
The wikipedia article on that piece of land is crazy. Religious zealots have been fighting over it since basically recorded history started.
It freaks me out that the cradle of civilization is completely desertified and locked in an endless war, as if that’s just the inevitable result of humans being somewhere for a long time.
Cradle of religion?
Not really cradle of civilisation.
Not really. That only really started with the crusades. For most of history it just got traded between various empires that just wanted to control the entire region (Babylon, Persia, Macadon/Selucids, Rome, Ottomans, etc).
Yeah, the crusaders were the first ones that weren’t interested in greater Syria/the greater Levant (If you don’t include the Phoenician city states I guess), stupidly enough for them. It’s a fine bit of territory to control if you can actually take the whole thing because of natural chokepoints, but otherwise you’ll lose eventually. Ottomans just went back to what the Romans did and governed it as Syria.
Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?
I just want to point out that bigger stronger countries stepping in to “soothe the conflict” between two smaller countries has worked basically 0 times throughout all of history in the long run.
Agreed, the bigger stronger countries aren’t mature enough to handle themselves, let alone getting mixed in other conflicts.
But like who’s the “adult” in this metaphorical dynamic? If there is no mediation, then one of two things will happen
- One kills and annexes the other Or 2. They continue to fight until they run out of populace and the whole area falls to irreparable socio-economic ruin.
I personally vote we let Greenland handle any and all affairs pertaining to this battle. They got a steady reign on things over there.
I don’t disagree, but I doubt either side would agree. Certainly the Israels wouldn’t. They’ve got the most international support, the superior military, and (most importantly) this war let’s them do what they’ve wanted to do for almost a century now, wipe them out and claim all their land for themselves. They’ve got everything to gain and really not all that much to lose except their humanity - and countries rarely optimize their wartime strategies for that.
Errybody wanna be hegemon til its time to do hegemon shit
It depends on what you mean by “work out”. If the goal is to stop conflict by eradicating a culture, that’s worked many times.
It’s not so much two infants irrationally arguing. Israel has owned some of this land for three generations. So the folks living there have passed it down as long as they’ve been alive. But another group owned it first, and the oldest among them remember the days before the occupiers came.
It’s like if the Cherokee decided to go full on guerrila warfare in the 1940s. Would they maybe have a point? How would it square with folks that had already been there for 80 years? It’s the settlers generational home now, too. Everyone has legitimate greivances. It’s not about settling tantrums, it’s about mediating between people that have legitimate but mutually exclusive claims.
Part of the problem is neither group seem to have any real interest in negotiation. Both groups seem to engage in war crimes attacking civilians and other illegitimate targets.
Every couple of years they get bored and lob missiles at each other, but the “war” has essentially devolved into a stalemate where everyone’s just trying to cause as much misery as possible without any real hope of victory or advancement.
I don’t understand why there are any westerners there. The whole region is red flagged for UK citizens, there’s no way I can get insurance to go there, I don’t understand how some people do.
Israel is coming out of a political crisis from 2021that saw a huge loss in confidence on the government including a dissolution of the parliament. Now that Netanyahu is in power again, he loves that this war broke out. Nothing cements a government in power like a good war.
The problem goes back further. You say “another group owned it first”, but Israel say they have had that land for millennia and it was given to them by God.
Palestine did not even exist until the British randomly carved it out on a map except for a brief period under the Romans around 0BC. The Romans called it Palestine in order to remove Israel’s identity.
How far back do we go?
My God said your home belongs to me so…gtfo. Please, leave something in the fridge for dinner. /s
Palestinians themselves, like Jews, descend from the ancient Hebrews. While the Jews left and (somewhat) assimilated in the lands they moved to, Palestinians were assimiliated by the Romans and Arabs. While their language and religion changed they are basically the same people.
And like any good brothers they go full Cain and Abel.
If my brother steals my house from me and leaves me in squalor…
Let’s just say Christmas dinner won’t be a happy one.
Cain disAbeled his brother…
That’s a simplistic take. There’s a saying that goes something like if you don’t read up, the Jewish are within their rights. If you read a bit, the Muslims are within their rights. If you study the issue you have no idea anymore.
I believe at this point everything in the media is a spin on the truth; for both sides.
How I see it, is that the ones with the money and technology have a better probability to stop the cycle. The ones with their backs against the wall have little options. Violence seldom leads to less violence.
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Besides all the very interesting comments and links here about the violent history of the area, here’s an answer from one Israeli guy I once asked a similar question. His take was that it is basically a mafiose environment now … “both sides are corrupt to their core” – the religiosity of the people would be abused by profiteers.
Basically, hate sells.
I could unpack that phrase over thousands of words about how generation after generation of Palestinians get indoctrinated, or how the leaders of the Arab nations use hating Israel as a way to show their strength and dedication. Or how generation after generation of Israelis have come to see Palestinians as something less than human. But let’s just summarize: hate sells.
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The middle east has been fighting for thousands of years. Religion is a helluva thing.
Many countries in the Middle East are essentially Banana Republics. They are countries that have a large amount of wealth that comes almost entirely from exporting a natural resource. The government in these countries is less of a government and more of a group of people who control the export market. They don’t rely on their citizens for support, they rely on other countries buying their exports. As long as their exports keep being purchased, the government has the money and power to do whatever it pleases.
Foreign involvement in these countries is usually to ensure the exports keep coming. The USA specifically spends a lot of money on being world police with their military because its easier to make trade deals with countries when they’re not at war.
It’s not that adults need to stop children from fighting. It’s adults going to the gas station and getting upset the employees are spending too much time fighting and not enough time pumping gas.
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A while ago I watched a video from RealLifeLore covering this topic and the TLDR is that poorly drawn borders by the British and the French separating religious groups and ethnicities will all but guarantee constant conflicts and instability in the region
The region was defined by constant conflict and instability before Britain and France were even a twinkle in a Celtic eye.
Yeah but damn if we didn’t perfect it lol
While the bright and “civilized” Europeans were in the dark ages, the Middle East took our science and continued it, saving it from disappearing entirely.
You can believe in the barbarian narrative about them if that makes you feel better about your national history, but it’s entirely untrue.
The fact that Muslims want to inihilate every Jew from the planet doesn’t help either.
Hell no. People here keep posting simplistic solutions but this area has a long bloody complex history. Many previous attempts have demonstrated there is no such solution. Trying to settle the area just means finding a new way to fucj it up more. Just no.
You could just turn it all into glass. Realistically as long as it’s some holy place there will never be peace unless we actually kill everyone
Found the solution boyz
Israel was basically created by the West, in land that belonged entirely to Palestine. Then, decades later, with Western help, Israel had conquered half of that land, and the UN just decided to enshrine the borders at the time. Now, some more decades later, Israel has expanded way beyond those “compromise” borders, thanks to even more Western help.
There is no “internal conflict” that the West needs to help ending. It was always the West, seeking to create an allied enclave in someone else’s land. Or, to build on your metaphor, this is a fight between the adults and the only child who was there from the start, because they want their own kid to play there instead.
Lemmygrad user
Indeed. Do you disagree on what I said?
Why not just deploy some dual faithed Messiah figurehead and mesh the two into some Israelistein city state and trick then into getting along?
Having this past year read the Bible(inc. apocrypha), the quaran(Nobel Eng. Translation), as well as the Torah,Talmud, and a slew of other Hebrew and Ethiopian texts I’ve tried to gain a straightforward understanding of what each person in these faith groups is ‘thinking’ when they argue their point.
The blinding reality is, it is the fucking. Same. Shit. You can swap entire chunks of the quaran and the new testament, or the Torah and Egyptian creationism and you wouldn’t be able to tell. The same points are being argued for the majority of each cannon, the only difference is the human “prophets” who are “spoken to by higher deities” and we’re supposed to take their word as truth.
So in short, the Middle East isn’t really fighting a holy war, it’s a sinful human war on holy land?
It’s a bit ingenious to think it’s so easy to just get some actor to play Jesus pt 2 or whatever. At best, everyone sees the blatant bullshit play for what it is. At worst, you spawn some cult of crazies who are dumb enough to make a government psyop into a religion
Didn’t the CIA get like hundreds of people go follow some cult guru back in the 80s? I know Documentary Now! did an episode that parodied whatever I’m referring to.
