“Some of you may be willing to die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” but unironically
Edit: The user has since apologised https://hexbear.net/comment/3848285
“Some of you may be willing to die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” but unironically
Edit: The user has since apologised https://hexbear.net/comment/3848285
“it’s senseless to resist Putin, give your country to him and nobody will get hurt”
Serious mode: what is your ideal outcome of this conflict? I’m genuinely interested and willing (and hopefully able) to learn.
The ideal situation is the USSR is reinstated and Zelensky and Putin get sent to the gulag together.
o7 to that
proletarian revolutions in Russia and Ukraine
Sure that would be ideal, but let’s talk about realistic and practical outcomes.
guy who wishes for Ukrainian victory talking about realistic outcomes
you asked for an ideal outcome. and that is a very practical outcome.
but fine, ill play ur game. a realistic and practical outcome that i prefer would be Russia preventing Ukraine from entering NATO, limiting the ability for the global empire to conquer everything
if Putin never invaded, Ukraine wouldn’t be trying to join NATO
This is some strong “stop hitting yourself” energy
And if ukraine hadn’t violated rhe Minsk agreement Russia wouldn’t have done that.
Fun fact did you know there’s history before the last 2 years?
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I did know. That why I remember the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty was guaranteed by Russia in exchange for their nukes. I wonder why y’all didn’t bring that up?
You got a response to this upthread that you didn’t reply to. Maybe address @Egon@hexbear.net before repeating yourself.
Thanks! I also posted it to them myself lol. I also called out that I knew they wouldn’t respond, because it’s clear they’re cowards. I should probably have added that other treaties and agreements have been broken as well - such as that of NATO expansion.
The Budapest memorandum??? You have got to be kidding me. A 30-year old document written shortly after the collapse of the USSR is somehow worthy of discussion? And it’s Russia that should be critiqued for breaching it? Euromaidan was a coup of the Ukrainian government led by far right militias funded by the United States Department, which then installed their own puppet government with their picked stooges. This government then continually shelled another russian-speaking part of Ukraine for 8 years (in spite of other treaties I might add). The Budapest memorandum was already trampled by the United States and then Ukraine itself. Of course later treaties were written - like Minsk II, which was breached continually by Ukraine. Russia did seek diplomatic solutions before invading - which I think was an overreaction, but pretending it was unprovoked is silly.
And since we’re talking treaties and agreements, what of that of NATO encroachment? The agreement that NATO would not incorporate ex Soviet countries? That’s of course not worth anything, because that’s different because we’re doing it, right?
Lol all signatories wiped their asses with minsk 2, while Putin played stupid by pretending he had nothing to do with LPR and DPR.
Once Putin realized he wasn’t going to get his pro-russian dickriders into Ukraine he literally invoked Godwin’s Law and invaded Ukraine because “muh nazis”.
Yea I can’t believe he called them nazis just because they’re wearing black sun patches and painting iron crosses on their tanks and freely admitting their nazis.
How many nazis are in Ukraine?
that’s funny bc this western source shows that in 2019, Ukraine amended their constitution to include a commitment to join NATO and the EU
Yeah, because in 2014, half their country was occupied by a foreign invader lol.
Oh no my neighbor is seeking alliances after I annexed their shit, how conniving of them!
this was 5 years later. Ukraine wouldnt need an alliance if they didnt consistently violate the Minsk agreements by bombing civilians in the DPR and LPR, giving Russia a reasonable casus belli
Time isn’t linear silly
Proof?
Putin didn’t even recognize DPR and LPR until the day before he invaded Ukraine. This is some concentrated revisionist history.
???
I’ll flip that one back on you, what’s your realistic and practical outcome?
Implementation of the Minsk agreements and ceasefire in Donbass?
Referendums in the region to find out what the people in the occupied territories actually want?
Return of land to the collectives that had it ripped from them after the war heated up?
Or are you just jingoistic and care about the territorial holdings of nation states that don’t represent the will of their people?
@aport@programming.dev why won’t you answer this?
Because my answers won’t matter. I’m wholly uneducated on this topic and my point for being here was to act in bad faith and kick the beehive.
After reading so many good faith responses from the posters here, I rightfully feel like a dumbass so I’m tucking tail and trying to diffuse the situation.
I am literally the “joke’s on them I was only pretending” meme, and I’m really not proud of it.
Well, I can’t say I wholly believe you due to how you’ve behaved in this thread, but I really hope what you’re saying is true, and I appreciate the sentiment.
If you’re interested in more discussions like these, I’d recommend you to hang out in the hexbear news mega.
Disagreement is cherisehd, as long as you’re not being smug or condescending about it. We all learn something every day.
We both know the answer, but I hope they respond and show their whole ass. Fucking warmongering scum.
Ok so ukraine winnings off the table.
I guess in that case cede the territory Russia captured and stop sending thousands of conscripts to die for nothing.
If you take a step back from your regularly scheduled CNNBBCMSNB propaganda and actually look at the facts of the situation, then you’d see that yes it is in fact senseless. You’d also see that Putin isn’t actually claiming the entirety of Ukraine - The Russian government is claiming the region’s that had been shelled by Ukraine since 2014 in breach of the Minsk II treaty. Russia has since added additional demands as Ukraines bargaining position has weakened during the war. It has weakened because Ukraine is losing, and it is continuing to lose.
It is senseless because Ukraine can’t win. Right now the long-propagandised glorious Ukrainian counteroffensive can’t even break the first of the three defensive lines. Thousands have died, thousands more are dying, and they are no step closer to accomplishing the goals of the counteroffensive. Even in a far off fantasy land where some of the goals would be accomplished, they’d come after thousands more dead Ukrainians. And for what? Russia has hundreds of thousands in reserve, a wealth of equipment stockpiled. There are no significant gains to be made, and every day as more Ukrainians die, their bargaining position gets worse.
Me thinking they should bargain from as strong a position as possible is somehow less supportive of Ukraine than yours that posits they should all just throw themselves to their deaths, and then let Russia pick the corpse of the country as it wants.
Since we’re being Serious™ let’s drop the idealism which permeates liberal discussion of this war. Let’s instead be realistic.
Ukraine should negotiate for a peace immediately, with as good terms as it can get, and take it. That peace will probably involve ceding the autonomous regions, maybe also the major cities that were captured in the latest russian offensive as well. It will also include the decoupling of the azov-battalion and other Neo-nazi related officials and institutions from Ukraine and probably a promise of no NATO membership.
That’s what I would imagine the current peace treaty would result in. Do I think it’s “fair” or “moral” or whatever? No not really, but it’s not gonna get any better, and at least thousands can go home and be with their families instead of bleeding to death after stepping on a mine.
Is this a Chamberlain impression? You think Russia is going to stop? Putin is an imperialist megalomaniac who wants fealty and submission.
If Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Putin will take it as explicit approval of his imperialist expansion on behalf of the entire West. There might be months to a year of tenuous peace then he’ll march onward until his puppet is sitting in Kyiv and Ukranians are speaking Russian.
Ahahaha yes of course appeasement is when you acknowledge that either they can get a decent treaty now, or unconditionally surrender after their entire able bodied population has died.
Why do you think Russia would want to annex the entirety of Ukraine? Because Putin is evil? Because they’re just horrible villains over there, for our GI Joe heroes to fight the good fight against?
Be real. Be realistic. Putin is a leader of a country with many factions. He’s not so e irrational James Bond Saturday Morning BreakFast Cereal Cobra Commander, doing stuff because he hates the world or whatever, if he were he wouldn’t have been stable enough to hold power for this long. If he were Prigozhin would actually have had support for his coup.
What would Russia gain from occupying the entirety of Ukraine? Massive unrest, constant resistance, territorial issues en masse. What base do you have to assume that the Russian government would want this?
It’s funny how appeasement is the word liberals drool over. It is their ONLY historical anecdote and used to defend opposing any movement towards peace, ag Korea. The reality is Chamberlain’s big crime was no the act of appeasement, it was knowingly stringing along the French and Soviets only to bail officially when there was no means of changing plans for the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Beyond that the comparison also doesn’t work because peace talks had occurred multiple times without excluding relevant parties. Minsk was a thing that happened.
Yeah it’s kinda wild how it’s just the same tired shit year after year. They know one book, one failure of a western leader, and one fallacy in discussions
It’s just really useful. We want to do something. Remember the time we didn’t do something?
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war? Despite its best soldiers and equipment already being spent while the Ukies bathe in the latest NATO gear? Sure, they may be having trouble with their counteroffensive, but that don’t mean that the Russians can mount one of their own. The best case scenario for Russia is a ceasefire and a North/South Korea situation, with a backwards, authoritarian North (Russia) and a prosperous, democratic South (Ukraine).
Democracy is when you have streets named after literal fascists leading to the sites of the Holocaust.
Also that equipment is not winning Ukraine any territory back. That’s like saying the Soviets couldn’t win WW2 in late 1944 because Germany was developing a jet fighter at that time.
The assumption? Russia is winning, where are you getting your news from, reddit?
:doubt: I thought the narrative was that Russia had thrown poorly equipped penal battalions at the Ukrainians, and it is only just now that we’re seeing a change in their troops and equipment? Now it apparently reversed? They started off with well-equpped and trained soldiers?
Ah yes the wunderwaffe. The leopards that are getting owned by unique technology like “landmines” will surely turn the war in Ukraines favour. Do you play a lot of HOI IV? You must, because it seems you have a completely wrong understanding of how equipping works. Do you think you just click the “upgrade” button? They’re not trained to use the myriad of different equipment they’re receiving, and even when they can use it, they’re trained with NATO doctrine, which laughably assumes constant air superiority. Of course the equipment is better than russias, because uhh… Because russias is worse! The T-72s have no chance against the leopard! The F16s are coming any day now, and the will definitely own the Russian jets!
That’s putting it mildly.
Not constantly attacking doesn’t mean you’re somehow the losing side. Russia controls the territory it wants to claim and then some. It is in a war of attrition against Ukraine and NATO equipment, and you have far less casualties on the defensive. Why would Russia abandon a strong position, when Ukraine is throwing itself into the meatgrinder?
Remind me, how was the South doing when the DMZ was designated?
Yeah, it’s so stupid to believe this, I mean, look at who’s doing all the conscriptions. Oh. Fuck. Uh, okay, look who has doesn’t have a functional air force and is chronically short on ammunition, as admitted by the actual president of the actual United States (who, I hope you agree, is not a puppet of Putin). Hm. Well, look at all the territory that Russia still has in Ukraine! They must be just down a few villages by now considering that Russia is completely out of missiles, is fighting with shovels, is out of artillery, has no ammo, their soldiers are completely demoralized and also all dead! Fuck. Shit.
Look, if Russia’s army is so awful, so utterly and completely imcompetent, so out of ammunition, so demoralized, and Ukraine still can’t make a sizable dent in their defences after two months, then holy shit, Ukraine’s army must be fucking terrible. Like, holy shit it must be bad.
The people having lost are the people being dead, the families separated and people traumatized. Like in all wars. The victims are mostly the working class.
That said, there are plenty of ways to spin winning and losing for both Ukraine and Russia. Of course for NATO this war war somewhat good, but there can be a couple of things be found that are bad, will not focus on that though.
Having secured the Krim, having secured a Krim land bridge, having ensured a close alignment of Donbas and Luhansk, having secured control over the Sea of Azov and in addition relevant parts of the North Western section of the Black Sea (and with that ensured access to gas and other resources while denying it to Ukraine), having the river as border in the South between the occupied territories and Ukraine, with mined and defended territory near Donetsk Oblast reduced the open flank of Russia (and its Krim) somewhat. This means millions of people who are effectively living on territory controlled by Russia. This also means a propaganda victory for Putin and thus support from some circles of nationalist society in Russia (for which the education in military basics adds something, too).
Hard to call all those things failures. That said during a war of attrition and position war is slow till it isn’t anymore. I am not on the side of Russia, but I can see how stuff could be spun.
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There is a Citations Needed episode about exactly this
Oh, how am I just now finding out this podcast exists? Thank you sir.
It’s honestly really insulting how you just completely ignore entire paragraphs someone spent time writing for you after saying you were interested and willing to learn.
I am uneducated on this topic and also arguing in bad faith
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Whoa
Gotta admit I respect the honesty
props for being willing to admit this. it takes guts. now do the reading and educate yourself
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Damn this is like, triple-distilled Kremlin Copium Reserve right here. Putin is an entirely rational actor? Lmfao! Is that why he picked a fight with a country a quarter the size of his and got a black eye? Is that why he flip-flopped in the Budapest memorandum? Is that why he blew up Priggy and pals for everyone to see?
Also, what kinda American provocations are you talking about? Was it the billions in IMF money Russia got in the 90s? That was provocative for sure. Or is it when they sent a spy to infiltrate your ruling party? Oh wait, Butina was Russian, it was the other way around, nevermind.
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Remind me, where were Russian forces marching in February last year? It was some city… A capital even. Started with a K.
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I think it had more do to with 10,000 dead Russian soldiers
Yea it’s deffinitly that and not the fact they had taken the territory they stated from the start they were trying to take.
Yes the stunning military victory knows as “retreat from Kyiv”
As you say this I imagine you standing on an aircraft carrier with a big banner behind reading “mission accomplished”
Schroedinger’s Russia: simultaneously on the brink of defeat and collapse, but also this close to taking over all of Europe if we dont send $80 billion more dollars to some nazis right now.
Like snap my fingers ideal? What @ZoomeristLeninist@hexbear.net said.
What’s actually possible as part of negotiations? This would be (an) ideal outcome to me (but is still never going to happen):
my general ideal framework for a potential peace agreement is obnoxiously long so I put it in this spoiler
1) Ukraine agrees to commit to purging their military and government of white supremacists (and Russia agrees to do the same! Although I think you’ll find that they wont have nearly the same kind of problem). This includes any official or officer who has said things like Russians being “Asian” or some other nazi dogwhistle bs like that. Oh and also anyone who has glorified Bandera in anyway, they’ve got to go too (he is seriously irredeemable, please look up the history of the OUN and all the truly horrible white supremacist shit they did)
2) Ukraine agrees to never attempt to join Nato again because of Russia’s valid security concerns. This is probably by far the most important measure, and it should be put into the agreement that any attempts to skirt around this will be met with military force.
3) After maybe a year to give everything time to settle down, all territory that Russia either fully or partially occupies is given a referendum on whether they want to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine, reintegrated but given autonomy, integrated into Russia but given autonomy, or fully integrated into Russia. As part of this Ukraine must also demilitarize to a certain extent so they don’t just start shelling any autonomous territories like they did before. Ukraine must also give up any claim to these territories that vote to integrate as part of Russia, including Crimea.
4) Russia agrees to help de-mine/de-bomb both Ukrainian territory and newly integrated Russian territory (NATO should also be a part of this particular part, but good luck getting them to actually help once the war is over)
5) Russia commits to a plan to help reunite families torn apart by the war, and both governments set up a plan to support war orphans so they don’t fall into human trafficking rings.
6) Russia helps Ukraine re-establish its peacetime agricultural production in return for certain economic trade agreements remaining favorable to Russia for a certain period of time.
7) Finally a joint commission to investigate war crimes committed by either of the 2 sides, and agreeing to abide by their findings.
(Final notes: As a part of #3 it will only be a ceasefire until certain things are completed, and would be broken by obvious signs of aggression etc. etc.)
I doubt any of this will actually happen because Ukraine’s government has been instructed by its western masters supplying it with all of its weaponry to not negotiate or else they will cut their weapon supply off, which will immediately weaken their position at any negotiating table with Russia.
an even longer obnoxiously long explanation of my position
These probably seems overly favorable to Russia, and they are favorable towards them, because they’re well positioned to win any war of attrition, so they’re in no hurry to give favorable terms to Ukraine, but I also laid out some propositions that would benefit Ukraine. Honestly, a few of my propositions may even be too favorable to Ukraine for what the Russian government would be willing to accept. Also, they help Ukrainian proles, not bourgeois really, so the Ukrainian government may not even like those propositions that are supposed to be favorable towards Ukraine! Still, this is roughly what I would hope to see coming out of a peace agreement between the two.
If you really can’t accept that these are the best terms Ukraine could get, I’ll just say they should have accepted the peace deal (and its much more favorable terms) a year ago before good ole Boris Johnson meddled and convinced them they could either win or get better terms later somehow. Every month that they wait their position gets weaker, and the terms will be more and more favorable to Russia. I would prefer that tens of thousands of more Ukrainians and Russians not die just for Russia to have better terms for Ukraine’s inevitable surrender, so ideally they should negotiate now, not then. The only way the tide of this war turns is if NATO actually gets directly involved, and I would really hope that we don’t risk nuclear annihilation over a war between two bourgeois-led states.
We could argue about the inevitability of Ukraine’s defeat, I guess, but I seriously doubt either of us are well educated on military affairs so that would be a pointless argument, I’m pretty much just having to go based off of what people I trust say in this field and do what little research I can to make sure they’re not just completely making something up.
My final statement is that I’ve seen convincing arguments that even if Zelensky tried to negotiate at this point, the fascists he’s surrounded himself with would just kill him and take power to keep the war going, so this is all could just be useless speculating anyways.
GOOD post
Ah you’re too kind, I think I ramble a bit much when I try to write out effort posts which is why I used the spoilers to make it easier to ignore my rambling haha
Nah it was great and well thought out
Ah thank you again then
♥️
The new border between Russia and Ukraine will be defined by the crater caused by the impact of a giant meteor which gives both parties something more pressing to deal with.
Please, step away from the lathe
Hear me out, I’m going somewhere with this
Okay, but only because of The Crying of Lot 49
Ayy it’s not Gravity’s Rainbow for a change.
Not speaking for everyone here but an ideal outcome would be:
Further outcomes would be that Ukraine doesn’t pay back the loans to the west because they simply can’t afford to. I have no idea how they’ll manage post war even if they win or lose. Worker rights in Ukraine have been demolished and the country has been sold to Blackrock and Co… And with Ukraine sending their working age population to the meat grinder, the future becomes bleaker every day.
Thanks for your response. I don’t entirely agree with all of your points but I can respect the thought you’ve put into the situation.
No problem. It’s Always nice to have someone willing to participate in open minded discussion.
Hey just a heads up that lib you complimented on having a nice discussion just told me I was huffing copium for saying Russia was winning because they’ve taken and held all the territory they stated they wanted to before the war
The wishes of the people of Crimea and the Donbass are respected and neo-nazism in Ukraine is destroyed, that would be a good start
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Since we’re talking about ideal outcomes, why wouldn’t the ideal outcome be for the borders to go back to pre-2014 Crimea annexation?
Nobody living in Crimea wants it to be part of Ukraine
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Ah so I missed that you corrected yourself to say you were actually listing realistic outcomes, not ideal ones.
Realistically, do you see Ukraine accepting any of these outcomes?