By the way, using profits from Arrakis to build bigger army was exactly what Atreides were doing, and why they accepted the fief change in the first place. But they had mere weeks at best before Harkonnens struck them.
If anything, Herbert at times expressed overinterest with finances, like in that scene where Paul and Jessica agree to distribute some water to needing Fremen in the Stilgar troop, in the middle of the desert after fight, and in response hear the ridiculously out of place bank talk.
Exactly. The Harkonnens had stockpiled decades of spice and gone into extreme debt on top of it in order to finance the re-invasion of Arrakis. And this is, of course, on top of the Imperial Saudakaur, who (against any but the fremen) were priceless and could fight with the strength of 10 men.
The Atreides were not a rich family - their power was in propaganda. And so their plan was to use this power to win over the Fremen, previously overlooked by the Harkonnens, to their side.
Without the Fremen, there was no amount of money that could have saved Leto Atreides and prevented the Harkonnen invasion. No amount of mercenaries could have thwarted the Saudarkar. The only thing that could have won the war for them was more time for the Atreides military leaders - Gurnie Halleck and Duncan Idaho - to train soldiers (and the building of an elite, loyal Atreides army was the reason the Harkonnens and the Emperor expedited the Atreides’ downfall in the first place - because they could have built an army to challenge the Emperor), or winning the loyalty of the Fremen sooner. Both are brought up in the books - what they needed was more time.
The one unanswered question is what happened between Atreides and Corrino before. Recent Caladan trilogy by Brian is happening exactly in that time but it completely flopped since it ends with Shaddam and Fenring end up those books being in very good relations to the Atreides, and also being hair width from ordering Sardaukar to exterminate the Harkonnen.
Wasn’t it just that Leto I and the Atreides were too popular? Approaching the point where they could conceivably challenge the emperor. I seem to remember Shaddam not being happy about killing the house but felt it necessary
Yeah this is exactly it. House Atreides had the support of vast amounts of the “lesser” nobles in the Landsraad. The Emperor held no ill will against House Atreides, and was even impressed at their soldiers and “honor” or whatever but ordered their downfall because they were within an inch of being able to challenge his position.
Yeah so the emperor had the Sardaukar, his elite military force, as well as a bunch of conventional forces. The Sardaukar as well as most of the Harkonnen forces are the ones who ambush the Atreides in the first part.
So that’s the big shock for Paul and Leto, that the Emperor did hire his forces out to the Harkonnen. That’s a huge deal, a step they considered beyond the Pale; the Emperor never hires out his Sardaukar, they’re his trump card. It shows how concerned the Emperor was about the chances of House Atreides standing against him.
That was part of it too, but (leaving aside Brian entirely), Shaddam was a man whose will was severly restrained by the Great Convention, particularly Landsraad was organisation which main or one of main purpose was even explicitly stated in the book by Thufir Hawat iirc - their greatest fear was that Emperor would use the Sardaukar to kill them off one by one, and it was stated to be the reason why the masquerade with Harkonnen uniforms was done. And it was HUGE risk for the emperor, he wouldn’t dare to do that for no reason, and certainly not when he had Fenring as advisor.
So there was much more of it between them. Also Leto himself was pretty keen to pursue this course so he wasn’t just a victim, by all probabilities he really was aiming at Shaddam. Possible most obvious course was 4 daughters and 0 sons of Shaddam, popular and politically savvy duke could easily push for marrying his son and heir to Irulan and became the all powerful force behind the throne. Shaddam would certainly fear that scenario, but i bet it was still not all. Well we will never know now, Brian version of the events are not even coherent with Brian version.
Yeah I think a lot of people forget (because it’s kinda obscure) that the Emperor’s strength and forces are about equal with the combined power of the Landsraad, with the Guild being an ostensibly neutral but very powerful third party. Each of those parties needs the others to survive so for the Emperor to take over military action against a Great House is a huge deal like you said.
In contemporary political terms, it might be like the president sending the Secret Service to murder a Senator or Supreme Court judge.
If it’s a secret they’re doing a shitty job keeping it since they keep fucking telling people.
Also if he’s the only guy in the universe who doesn’t know it means every single one of the emperors daughters is betraying him and his dynasty and his spies are shit.
Who do they tell? The reader gets it from Jessica, who tells:
The Reverend Mother, who knows it already;
Paul (I think), who is going through BG training himself, thus is privy to some of their secrets
Maybe (?) Leto (can’t really remember), who she loves so much she YOLO’d a multi-generation BG project to make happy, so sharing a BG secret wouldn’t be too large of leap from there.
Besides, huge secrets are kept routinely, or at least kept well enough to where no one could prove otherwise. The details of the Harkonnen attack, the Emperor’s involvement in it, and Paul and Jessica’s survival all come to mind.
Doubt it’s that secret, everyone calls them witches, the most politically relevant ability of truthtrance is widely known, and every mentat worth his sapho would immediately notice some things, like the statistically improbable amount of daughters the BG have.
BG clearly have plot shield before Leto II, when he takes the role.
Exactly! Even a provincial 15 year old noble kid knew that Bene Gesserit occupation was politics, and BG sisters were everywhere not even pretending, but all powers seemingly turned a blind eye to it until God Emperor, and he was clearly training them. Maybe they just have a lot of dirt on everyone, plausible considering their other memories and breeding program involving a lot of nobility.
Oh well, at least in the abovementioned Caladan trilogy Brian did accurately portray them as incompetent and far cry from later ones like Taraza or Odrade.
I doubt he is writer at all, KJA is really prolific writer that does it all, and KJA is not THAT bad, only two of Extended Dune books i would scrap as “awful” and none because of writing.
also, the atreides (and every other house in the landsraad) was paying levies to the emperor out the nose. the emperor was extracting taxes, rents, and every fucking thing he could get away with.
Exploitation of the noble houses by Emperor was most probabaly done less directly, but capitalistically, through CHOAM, in which emperor had majority of shares.
Second thing that surprised them was the scale of the attack, not only Sardaukar but that the Harkonnens basically bankrupted themselves to send overwhelming force.
By the way, using profits from Arrakis to build bigger army was exactly what Atreides were doing, and why they accepted the fief change in the first place. But they had mere weeks at best before Harkonnens struck them.
If anything, Herbert at times expressed overinterest with finances, like in that scene where Paul and Jessica agree to distribute some water to needing Fremen in the Stilgar troop, in the middle of the desert after fight, and in response hear the ridiculously out of place bank talk.
Exactly. The Harkonnens had stockpiled decades of spice and gone into extreme debt on top of it in order to finance the re-invasion of Arrakis. And this is, of course, on top of the Imperial Saudakaur, who (against any but the fremen) were priceless and could fight with the strength of 10 men.
The Atreides were not a rich family - their power was in propaganda. And so their plan was to use this power to win over the Fremen, previously overlooked by the Harkonnens, to their side.
Without the Fremen, there was no amount of money that could have saved Leto Atreides and prevented the Harkonnen invasion. No amount of mercenaries could have thwarted the Saudarkar. The only thing that could have won the war for them was more time for the Atreides military leaders - Gurnie Halleck and Duncan Idaho - to train soldiers (and the building of an elite, loyal Atreides army was the reason the Harkonnens and the Emperor expedited the Atreides’ downfall in the first place - because they could have built an army to challenge the Emperor), or winning the loyalty of the Fremen sooner. Both are brought up in the books - what they needed was more time.
actually what they needed was more spice futures. sorry kid
The one unanswered question is what happened between Atreides and Corrino before. Recent Caladan trilogy by Brian is happening exactly in that time but it completely flopped since it ends with Shaddam and Fenring end up those books being in very good relations to the Atreides, and also being hair width from ordering Sardaukar to exterminate the Harkonnen.
Wasn’t it just that Leto I and the Atreides were too popular? Approaching the point where they could conceivably challenge the emperor. I seem to remember Shaddam not being happy about killing the house but felt it necessary
Yeah this is exactly it. House Atreides had the support of vast amounts of the “lesser” nobles in the Landsraad. The Emperor held no ill will against House Atreides, and was even impressed at their soldiers and “honor” or whatever but ordered their downfall because they were within an inch of being able to challenge his position.
Who was the emperor affiliated with? Did he have his own armies?
Yeah so the emperor had the Sardaukar, his elite military force, as well as a bunch of conventional forces. The Sardaukar as well as most of the Harkonnen forces are the ones who ambush the Atreides in the first part.
Oh, I thought the sardaukar were mercenaries, but idk, the emper can hire out his forces as a treat.
So that’s the big shock for Paul and Leto, that the Emperor did hire his forces out to the Harkonnen. That’s a huge deal, a step they considered beyond the Pale; the Emperor never hires out his Sardaukar, they’re his trump card. It shows how concerned the Emperor was about the chances of House Atreides standing against him.
That was part of it too, but (leaving aside Brian entirely), Shaddam was a man whose will was severly restrained by the Great Convention, particularly Landsraad was organisation which main or one of main purpose was even explicitly stated in the book by Thufir Hawat iirc - their greatest fear was that Emperor would use the Sardaukar to kill them off one by one, and it was stated to be the reason why the masquerade with Harkonnen uniforms was done. And it was HUGE risk for the emperor, he wouldn’t dare to do that for no reason, and certainly not when he had Fenring as advisor.
So there was much more of it between them. Also Leto himself was pretty keen to pursue this course so he wasn’t just a victim, by all probabilities he really was aiming at Shaddam. Possible most obvious course was 4 daughters and 0 sons of Shaddam, popular and politically savvy duke could easily push for marrying his son and heir to Irulan and became the all powerful force behind the throne. Shaddam would certainly fear that scenario, but i bet it was still not all. Well we will never know now, Brian version of the events are not even coherent with Brian version.
Yeah I think a lot of people forget (because it’s kinda obscure) that the Emperor’s strength and forces are about equal with the combined power of the Landsraad, with the Guild being an ostensibly neutral but very powerful third party. Each of those parties needs the others to survive so for the Emperor to take over military action against a Great House is a huge deal like you said.
In contemporary political terms, it might be like the president sending the Secret Service to murder a Senator or Supreme Court judge.
The real gaping plot question is why the emperor allowed the Bene Gesseret to deny him an heir
Isn’t the exact, ludicrous amount of control BGs have over their bodies a closely-guarded secret?
If it’s a secret they’re doing a shitty job keeping it since they keep fucking telling people. Also if he’s the only guy in the universe who doesn’t know it means every single one of the emperors daughters is betraying him and his dynasty and his spies are shit.
Who do they tell? The reader gets it from Jessica, who tells:
Besides, huge secrets are kept routinely, or at least kept well enough to where no one could prove otherwise. The details of the Harkonnen attack, the Emperor’s involvement in it, and Paul and Jessica’s survival all come to mind.
Doubt it’s that secret, everyone calls them witches, the most politically relevant ability of truthtrance is widely known, and every mentat worth his sapho would immediately notice some things, like the statistically improbable amount of daughters the BG have.
BG clearly have plot shield before Leto II, when he takes the role.
Exactly! Even a provincial 15 year old noble kid knew that Bene Gesserit occupation was politics, and BG sisters were everywhere not even pretending, but all powers seemingly turned a blind eye to it until God Emperor, and he was clearly training them. Maybe they just have a lot of dirt on everyone, plausible considering their other memories and breeding program involving a lot of nobility.
Oh well, at least in the abovementioned Caladan trilogy Brian did accurately portray them as incompetent and far cry from later ones like Taraza or Odrade.
Oh sorry I haven’t read anything past the one with the worm-emperor
Not bad move, first four are the best.
Its true, but Odrade is so cool…
Nothing by Brian is canon, you might as well tell me about something you dreamed
It is canon by definition, but the difference in content means there are three separate canons: Just Frank, Frank + Encyclopedia, Frank + Brian.
False, someone spill the water of this non believer!
The water of life, so i awaken and declare Brianian Jihad on all gatekeepers!
for real though, ugh, brian is such a bad writer…
I doubt he is writer at all, KJA is really prolific writer that does it all, and KJA is not THAT bad, only two of Extended Dune books i would scrap as “awful” and none because of writing.
also, the atreides (and every other house in the landsraad) was paying levies to the emperor out the nose. the emperor was extracting taxes, rents, and every fucking thing he could get away with.
Exploitation of the noble houses by Emperor was most probabaly done less directly, but capitalistically, through CHOAM, in which emperor had majority of shares.
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Second thing that surprised them was the scale of the attack, not only Sardaukar but that the Harkonnens basically bankrupted themselves to send overwhelming force.
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There’s also no way for him to refuse, absent exile.
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