I don’t see many lefties talk about pre-modern history outside of colonialism so I am curious as to how Marxists view it.

The fall of the Roman Empire wasn’t one singular event but a series of events spanning from what I can tell starts at Third Century Crisis to its final climax at Constinantinople in 1453.

  • cfgaussian
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    edit-2
    5 months ago

    In my opinion Rome was in some ways the first proto-capitalist society. As others have pointed out it stood apart from other civilizations that came before it in the fact that it was fanatically pro-creditor much in the same way modern capitalist societies are. Not coincidentally, this society was only able to be built on genocide and imperialist expansionism.

    Once that expansion stopped, the internal contradictions which come with such a socio-economic system started to accumulate: increasing wealth transfer from the bottom to the top, consolidation of land ownership into a few big latifundia, the dispossession and enserfdom of the small farmer or their migration into the cities as an impoverished urban proletariat, etc.

    These contradictions built up until inevitably the entire rotten structure collapsed into repeated internal crises exacerbated by outside factors like climate change, epidemics and migrations (the latter two very likely linked to the former), though these external factors would not have been sufficient to take it down had it not already been in a terminally weakened state.

    As for when the Roman Empire ended, i am in the camp that strongly opposes the view that the medieval Byzantine empire was a continuation of Rome. It was too socially and culturally different from the Rome of the classical period. Therefore i don’t agree with putting the date at 1453 though i think it is debatable exactly what the date should be.

    For me there are three notable milestones that each could be counted as the “end of the Roman Empire”, these are: 395 when the empire permanently split on the death of Theodosius, 476 when western Rome fell, and 565 when the last real Roman emperor Justinian died, shortly after which the Byzantines lost control of most of Italy.

    If you want to really stretch things you could maybe go all the way up to the mid to late 600s with the switch to the theme system, though that in itself was an administrative response to social, demographic and economic changes that had already occurred. Either way it’s safe to say the Roman empire proper ended sometime between the early fifth and mid to late seventh century.

  • SadArtemis
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    edit-2
    5 months ago

    There’s a lot to go on about- but needless to say, Rome deserved to fall. Just as America does and will. People always remember and cry about the “fall of Rome” and all that nonsense, but they forget all the slavery, mismanagement, and abuses that were inflicted upon the so-called “barbarian” tribes in the west who had come seeking to join the empire, and the increasing abandonment of the plebs who built the empire, that led formerly amenable peoples to become western Rome’s worst headaches. The way Rome treated the Goths is a perfect example- these people were basically begging to join the empire and would have provided cheap, fresh troops- so of course, they got settled in shitty swampland, left to starve and then extorted to the point they were selling their kids for dog meat, and when they initially started resisting for entirely understandable reasons, the Romans tried to kill off their leadership when they met for negotiations.

    Personally I prefer eastern Rome, that said. I have a self-aware bias against western, Latin Europe (minus the Celts, and sometimes the Germans) and I’m not ashamed to say it. Especially the Anglos, screw the Anglos

    • Absolute
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      5 months ago

      Parenti’s book is excellent and I think feeds well into the theories that Hudson has about this topic, though I havent delved into his books specifically on it yet.

      I think the main gist of it though is that the rise of Greek/Roman society marked the end of pro-debtor economic practices such as debt jubilees and regular land reform. Someone smarter and more well read than me should correct if I’m wrong but I believe he tries to detail a common thread of pro-creditor policy becoming dominate to the point of ruin in western society. The Roman Empire did not fall due to any specific events but rather the accumulation of economic mismanagement in service to the ruling classes that rotted the very core of the superstructure of these societies, to which there are obvious parallels to today.

      • davel
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        5 months ago

        Right, Hudson covered the transition away from debt jubilees in his pre-Roman-era book, …and forgive them their debts: Lending, Foreclosure and Redemption — From Bronze Age Finance to the Jubilee Year

        Clean Slate debt cancellations (the Jubilee Year), used in Babylonia since Hammurabi’s dynasty, first appear in the Bible in Leviticus 25. Jesus’s first sermon announced that he had come to proclaim it. This message – more than other religious claims – is what threatened his enemies, and why he was put to death.

        This interpretation has been all but expunged from our contemporary understanding of the phrase, “…and forgive them their debts,” in The Lord’s Prayer. It has been changed to “…and forgive them their trespasses (or sins),” depending on the particular Christian tradition that influenced the translation from the Greek opheilēma/opheiletēs (debts/debtors). On the contrary, debt repayment has become sanctified and mystified as a way of moralizing claims on borrowers, allowing creditor elites and oligarchs the leverage to take over societies and privatize their public assets, especially in hard times.

        Historically, no monarchy or government has survived takeover by creditor elites and oligarchs (viz: Rome). In a time of increasing economic and political polarization, and a global economy deeper in debt than at the height of the 2008 financial crisis, …and forgive them their debts shows what individuals, governments, and societies can learn from the ancient past for restoring economic and social stability today.