Eh. That’s not really related to the current problem of lack of political representation for non-capitalists. A communist utopia that was built on depopulated land would’t really have any issues being a utopia for the existing people just because they genocided some folks 200 years ago.
This is to ignore the entire political culture of the United States and it’s history, and how this history is viewed by its contemporaries, and how this view of history influences the present and future. Remember, who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past!
Any hypothetical “communist utopia built on depopulated land” would have to have, at some point, contended with the history of how that land became depopulated in the first place, and the accompanying ideology of colonialism, expansionism and capital accumulation which enabled that, in order to become a “communist utopia”. Otherwise, failing to contend with that history, it would not be a “communist utopia”, and the ideological descendants of those who carried out the original genocide, depopulation of land, and capital accumulation would still be in charge, most likely trying to expand their empire and methods of subjugation globally. Oh wait, that’s exactly what’s going on in the USA right now! I’ll just quote an excerpt from Samir Amin’s Revolution From North To South to illustrate the point further:
The political culture of the United States is not the same as the one that took form in France beginning with the Enlightenment and, above all, the Revolution. The heritage of those two signal events has, to various extents, marked the history of a large part of the European continent. U.S. political culture has quite different characteristics. The particular form of Protestantism established in New England served to legitimize the new U.S. society and its conquest of the continent in terms drawn from the Bible. The genocide of the Native Americans is a natural part of the new chosen people’s divine mission. Subsequently, the United States extended to the entire world the project of realizing the work that “God” had ordered it to accomplish. The people of the United States live as the “chosen people.”
Of course, the American ideology is not the cause of U.S. imperialist expansion. The latter follows the logic of capital accumulation and serves the interests of capital (which are quite material). But this ideology is perfectly suited to this process. It confuses the issue. The “American Revolution” was only a war of independence without social import. In their revolt against the English monarchy, the American colonists in no way wanted to transform economic and social relations, but simply no longer wanted to share the profits from those relations with the ruling class of the mother country. Their main objective was above all westward expansion. Maintaining slavery was also, in this context, unquestioned. Many of the revolution’s major leaders were slave owners, and their prejudices in this area were unshakeable…
The specific combination of factors in the historical formation of U.S. society—dominant “biblical” religious ideology and absence of a workers’ party—has resulted in government by a de facto single party, the party of capital.
the ideological descendants of those who carried out the original genocide, depopulation of land, and capital accumulation would still be in charge
Disagree. After a revolution where full communism was implemented after a purge, why would the same wealthy families of the US be in charge? And if they were “in-charge” how could you call what they implemented a “communist utopia?”
I don’t want to get into the specific of what “true” communism is. But my assertion is that history has momentum, and multi-generational influence, but it isn’t absolute and revolution can certainly remove those influences and stop that momentum. Otherwise you may as well just give up and say that humanity is doomed because we are all descended from a bunch of murders/settlers/etc.
Disagree. After a revolution where full communism was implemented after a purge, why would the same wealthy families of the US be in charge? And if they were “in-charge” how could you call what they implemented a “communist utopia?”
Thats my point. That in order to advance, to achieve a revolutionary advance, to remove/purge those wealthy capitalists from power, you have to deal with the history of the formation of the United States at some point. There is no other way, you cannot get to the point of a revolution without addressing that history, as that ideology and history is perfectly suited to the process of capital expansion. You are absolutely right in that the revolution and it’s forces would have to remove those historical influences and stop their momentum. That is the way forward. No one is doomed to the past of their ancestors, as long as they are prepared to move forward and support the creation of an equitable world for all.
Thanks for your Point of View. I’m not sure I agree nor understand what it means to “deal with the history of the United States,” in a leftist social or political movement but it’s probably that my interpretation of what you are saying isn’t meshing with your meaning.
They definitely are. The country was founded by a bunch of slave owners. Yes, back then it was difficult to get a bunch of haggard, sexual deviants from Europe, who believed they were rightful owners of a land they just set foot in, to understand how voting works, and collect those votes in a timely manner across a massive country in a time where the fastest means of transport was a horse. Imagine trying to explain instant run off voting to somebody who was dirty all the time and whipped slaves for fun, or the people who had to work in mines and who could barely read, let alone utter a grammatically correct sentence.
The electoral college and first past the post are relics that have everything to do with their time of conception as well as the circumstances they were conceived in.
The here and now is the only thing I care about. If our current system isn’t meeting the needs of the people that are alive today, then I don’t give a fuck about it or its history. That system is trash and should be destroyed. That system has a name of course and it is Captialism and Capitalism will never allow the working class one iota of power regardless of the excuses you make for it or the history you ascribe to it.
They literally are though, the tools and processes of capitalist extraction and subjugation currently used both inside the US and out are finely honed versions of those that enabled colonial extraction and subjugation.
Turns out that making a fake country on forcibly depopulated land means its political parties will be equally as fake.
Eh. That’s not really related to the current problem of lack of political representation for non-capitalists. A communist utopia that was built on depopulated land would’t really have any issues being a utopia for the existing people just because they genocided some folks 200 years ago.
This is to ignore the entire political culture of the United States and it’s history, and how this history is viewed by its contemporaries, and how this view of history influences the present and future. Remember, who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past!
Any hypothetical “communist utopia built on depopulated land” would have to have, at some point, contended with the history of how that land became depopulated in the first place, and the accompanying ideology of colonialism, expansionism and capital accumulation which enabled that, in order to become a “communist utopia”. Otherwise, failing to contend with that history, it would not be a “communist utopia”, and the ideological descendants of those who carried out the original genocide, depopulation of land, and capital accumulation would still be in charge, most likely trying to expand their empire and methods of subjugation globally. Oh wait, that’s exactly what’s going on in the USA right now! I’ll just quote an excerpt from Samir Amin’s Revolution From North To South to illustrate the point further:
Disagree. After a revolution where full communism was implemented after a purge, why would the same wealthy families of the US be in charge? And if they were “in-charge” how could you call what they implemented a “communist utopia?”
I don’t want to get into the specific of what “true” communism is. But my assertion is that history has momentum, and multi-generational influence, but it isn’t absolute and revolution can certainly remove those influences and stop that momentum. Otherwise you may as well just give up and say that humanity is doomed because we are all descended from a bunch of murders/settlers/etc.
Thats my point. That in order to advance, to achieve a revolutionary advance, to remove/purge those wealthy capitalists from power, you have to deal with the history of the formation of the United States at some point. There is no other way, you cannot get to the point of a revolution without addressing that history, as that ideology and history is perfectly suited to the process of capital expansion. You are absolutely right in that the revolution and it’s forces would have to remove those historical influences and stop their momentum. That is the way forward. No one is doomed to the past of their ancestors, as long as they are prepared to move forward and support the creation of an equitable world for all.
Thanks for your Point of View. I’m not sure I agree nor understand what it means to “deal with the history of the United States,” in a leftist social or political movement but it’s probably that my interpretation of what you are saying isn’t meshing with your meaning.
Great so what’s the problem then
We live in a capitalist society, but the colonialist roots of that society aren’t the issue.
You need to readsettlers.org
Been there done that, race essentialism ain’t it.
They definitely are. The country was founded by a bunch of slave owners. Yes, back then it was difficult to get a bunch of haggard, sexual deviants from Europe, who believed they were rightful owners of a land they just set foot in, to understand how voting works, and collect those votes in a timely manner across a massive country in a time where the fastest means of transport was a horse. Imagine trying to explain instant run off voting to somebody who was dirty all the time and whipped slaves for fun, or the people who had to work in mines and who could barely read, let alone utter a grammatically correct sentence.
The electoral college and first past the post are relics that have everything to do with their time of conception as well as the circumstances they were conceived in.
The here and now is the only thing I care about. If our current system isn’t meeting the needs of the people that are alive today, then I don’t give a fuck about it or its history. That system is trash and should be destroyed. That system has a name of course and it is Captialism and Capitalism will never allow the working class one iota of power regardless of the excuses you make for it or the history you ascribe to it.
They literally are though, the tools and processes of capitalist extraction and subjugation currently used both inside the US and out are finely honed versions of those that enabled colonial extraction and subjugation.