u/Creeemi - originally from r/GenZhou
Also why are there two republics and not one? And was/is there really genocide in Donbas? I know about the 2014 fascist led coup by NATO aligned neo nazis and all that, but I dont really understand about the situatoin in east Ukraine, except that they are mostly russian speaking and have pro russian sentiments (which the west ukrainians dont like).
Edit: Also what exactly is Minsk II, why do people say its dead and who broke it and why?
u/toczownik - originally from r/GenZhou
Before 2014 Viktor Yanukovych was the President of Ukraine. His government was a centre-right oligarchy. He was mildly pro-Russian, but similarly to Nazarbayev in Kazakhstan tried to play the EU and Russia against themselves to get good trade deals with everybody. When he vetoed an association agreement with the EU in 2013 and instead turned to Russia, people who were already angry at the low standard of living in Ukraine went to the streets, inspired by NGOs funded by the EU. Euromaidan protests were mostly liberal, but there was a very strong Ukrainian nationalist faction. Protests quickly escalated, with protestors storming public buildings and special forces responding by shooting live ammo. The government after about two months lost control over riots. It was not really a coup, the army was not directly involved. The government simply lost control of major Western cities and gave up. There were over 10k casualties on both sides.
When Yanukovych fled the country and pro-EU liberals took control, they tried to use far-right militias to weaken pro-Russian counterprotests in Eastern Ukraine. This dramatically worsened already existing ethnic conflict and Russian separatists took control of many public buildings in Russian-speaking regions. They were quickly defeated everywhere but most Russian Donbas and Crimea. Ukrainian nationalists from the west responded with repressions of ethnic Russians and banned the communist party, which was initially had quite a lot of influence in Donbas. Now they are still tolerated in Donbas, but have lost any influence on local politics. LPR and DPR are both under control of Russian nationalists, who use a weird mix of Soviet and Imperial Russian aesthetics. While Ukraine started officially celebrating WW2 collaborators, they also don’t shy away from using tsarist & Russian fascist symbolics.
In 2015 the situation stagnated, Ukrainian army and various nationalist militias (including the infamous Azov battalion) didn’t manage to push back the separatist militias. Ukrainian economy is deteriorating and liberals have embraced nationalism to somehow unite frustrated citizens. There was an attempt to solve the conflict peacefully with support of France, Germany and Russia. The Minsk II Protocol is aresult of these negotiations. Ukraine was obliged to create autonomous regions of Luhansk and Donetsk and guarantee amnesty for separatists who in turn had to rejoin Ukraine. before necessary laws would be passed in Ukraine, a ceasefire has been signed. Ukraine has never got around to implement Minsk II and both sides (mostly Ukraine, but not exclusively) have repeatedly broken the ceasefire. The agreement has been dead for years and stalemate continues to this day.
There has never really been a genocide, but Ukraine is trying to push Western Ukrainian culture with more Polish and Jewish (although Ukrainian nationalists hate those ethnicities as well, leading to some diplomatic incidents with Israel and Poland) and less Russian influences. War criminals like Stepan Bandera are celebrated as national heroes.
u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
False, there is a genocide. Azov has killed many russian civilians in east Ukraine, and russian, along with hungarian and romanian, have pretty much been banned from public life in Ukraine since 2014. School in those languages is illegal, shops must use ukrainian when talking to customers and russian language media has all been shut down pretty much.Edit: Also the 2014 events were most definetely a US organized coup. See my other comment below for details.
u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
The other thing that’s false about their statement, is not calling what happened to Yanukovich a coup, which it definitely was:u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes, absolutely agree. Theres even better evidence than this. The Victoria Nuland leaked phone call where she literally picks who the next ukrainian prime minister will be (spoiler alert, her “prediction” became true) proves it was a coup beyond doubt. Also there is the leaked phone call of the estonian foreign minister stating that the famous Maidan square sniper attack was organized by the US funded opposition. The evidence is clear.u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Do you have that article? I’d love to add it to my docs.u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
Sure thing comrade.Transcript of Victoria Nulands leaked phone call: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957?fbclid=IwAR21mF44ZNB_zxgrJklEAUkHUEKXIRLHn5YfMAWARxuDPKzwTWSrM-jSfQc
Article on the leaked phone call by estonian foreign minister (not president, i was wrong): https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/05/leaked-eu-officials-speculate-kiev-snipers-acted-on-protesters-orders/
Its also western media so the idiot libs cant say iTs rUsSiAn pRoPaGaNdA
u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Thx!u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
No problem!
u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
Also just to add on this, the US using sniper attacks on protesters to stage a color revolution isnt something new, there is in fact a strong precedent for this. The event that triggered the violent ousting and murder of Nicolae Ceausescu (communist president of romania) in 1989 was a sniper attack against peaceful protesters in Bucharest while Ceausescu was giving a speech aimed at reconciliation between government and protesters. The event was caught live on TV during Ceausescus speech, and you can clearly see that Ceausescu is genuinely confused and worried as halfway through his speech shots are heard and people start panicking. After this event Ceausescu was quickly overthrown. He was immediately arrested by order of his own generals and executed immediately along with his wife Elena. He was not allowed to explain his version of the events to the public before being killed. Afterwards, the generals and communist party officials who had betrayed him became the new rulers and oligarchs of the modern day “free” and “democratic” Romania.Now, although as far as i know there is no conclusive evidence that this was a CIA plot, it seems very likely to me. Some speculate that there was also KGB involvement in this under orders of Gorbachev, since Ceausescu was one of the most vocal opponents of perestroika.
u/Neat_Association7949 - originally from r/GenZhou
Isn’t there also evidence that there were unidentified snipers involved during the 1993 constitutional crisis in Russia?Seems like this comes straight out of the CIA’s playbook. Especially when we consider the overwhelmingly pro western shift as a result, it’s almost certain that snipers weren’t the entirety of US influence.
u/NelsonJamdela - originally from r/GenZhou
So pretty much what the west has been accusing china of doing to the uyghurs?u/PaiosFranen - originally from r/GenZhou
Kind of yes. In Ukraine the cultural genocide is definetely systematic and planned by the government. The actual genocide isnt. Ukraine isnt putting all russians in concentration camps or anything, like the west claims China does to uyghurs. All you need to do as a russian to be accepted and have no problems is speak ukrainian, support the ukrainian government, hate Russia and love the west, noone will check who your parents are or anything. However, if you dare speak russian, express distaste for the ukrainian government and/or the west or support for Russia in public, you will be probably harassed, assaulted or even killed by neonazi gangs like Azov Battalion. The ukrainian government doesnt commit actual genocide, but does nothing to prevent it either. Many Azov nazis have committed genocide against russians in East Ukraine. This wasnt ordered by the government, but they arent against it either. Same happens with other minorities like hungarians and romanians or if you are a communist, since in 2015 Ukraine banned communism. Anyone supporting communism or showing communist symbols in public gets 3 years in prison. Same if you dare “deny the heroism” in public of Stepan Bandera, the nazi hero of Ukraine. Now while Ukraine wouldnt commit actual genocide against russians in Donbass if they could, Azov and other neonazi gangs definetely would. And since these people are most of the soldiers Ukraine uses to fight in Donbass, Donbass must be protected.TLDR: Yes, its what the west claims China does to uyghurs but toned down.
[] - originally from r/GenZhou
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u/paypal_me_one_euro - originally from r/GenZhou
Israel denying the use of the Iron Dome weaponry for the defense of Ukraine is part of what you refer to as diplomatic incidents?u/toczownik - originally from r/GenZhou
That, or a Ukrainian nationalist smashing an egg on Polish president during a joint commemoration of massacres of Poles and Jews by Bandera’s militias. Additionally Israel has not supported Ukraine during the UN vote condemning Ukrainian separatists. This might me because Russian Jews have a huge influence in Israel though.
u/Trebuh - originally from r/GenZhou
Best explaination ive seen, thanks.u/alphabet_order_bot - originally from r/GenZhou
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.I have checked 601,092,812 comments, and only 123,536 of them were in alphabetical order.
u/Coridimus - originally from r/GenZhou
Bad bot
u/NEEDZMOAR_ - originally from r/GenZhou
It was definitely a coup in 2014, the protests quickly got co-opted.
u/eisagi - originally from r/GenZhou
Background. Ukraine was split ~50-50 between pro-Western and pro-Russian parties.2004 Presidential election. Pro-Russian Yanukovych wins a close vote. Pro-Western Yuschenko alleges fraud, stages massive demonstrations with American money and training. As compromise, the election is run again and now Yuschenko wins a close vote.
2010 Presidential election. Yuschenko runs the least popular Ukrainian government ever, picks fights with all his allies, tanks the economy, gets 5% in his re-election bid. Yanukovych is elected - again in a close vote, but the election is deemed by Western observers to be the most free and fair the country has ever had.
2014 Coup. Pro-Western parties overthrow Yanukovych by force. His party, which was the largest in parliament and was organized around protecting the interests of the Ukrainian East and South, basically gets harassed into nothing, with members being arrested, assassinated, or intimidated. Demonstrations against the Coup are broken up by force, most famously in Odessa where the demonstrators were herded into the Trade Union building, which was then set on fire, with people jumping out the windows getting shot at and beaten.
So for Crimea and the Donbass - every time they organized politically and won a vote, the results got thrown out. Demonstrators in the Donbass started occupying government buildings. Ukraine sent in soldiers. War began.
[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/toczownik - originally from r/GenZhou
Solshenitsyn ended up in a labor camp because he was a Russian fascist and believed that bolsheviks are all overt or covert Jews who want to destroy Russia. Of course he opposed policy which acknowledged multiethnic character of former Russian Empire. Cities of Donbas has been split evenly between Russian speaking Ukrainians and Russians and Ukrainian speakers dominated the countryside both in 1920s and now, as censuses show.u/Specialist-Sock-855 - originally from r/GenZhou
Interesting, I’ve seen other references to Solzhenitsyn being a shithead but haven’t really looked into it more. Where can one find the source for that and/or read more?u/toczownik - originally from r/GenZhou
Read his own book, “Two Hundred Years Together”, it’s filled with antisemitic and reactionary garbage. You can find citations to multiple reviews on the book’s Wikipedia page. Same goes to Gulag Archipelago, it’s filled with far-right dogwhistles about commie Jews murdering good Russian patriots. Here you can read an article in a mainstream British newspaper discussing this, a proof that it’s not just communists trying to discredit him.u/Specialist-Sock-855 - originally from r/GenZhou
Thank you!
u/meesk98 - originally from r/GenZhou
I’m also curious why people think Russia isn’t imperialist? They already hold some power over Europe by being a big and crucial source of natural gas. A lot of people claim Europe can’t upset Russia too much out of fear of being cut off that gas. But I don’t know if that’s liberal Russia bad propaganda?I know they’re not in the same position as the US, but surely Russia has the same interests and ambitions as them? It’s just that they’re competitors. It’s not like they have any communist ambitions anymore.
u/TheBlurstOfGuys - originally from r/GenZhouI’m also curious why people think Russia isn’t imperialist?
I think people reactively push back on this “Russia is imperialist” because it’s just recently been taught to libs as a stick to beat Russia with. Whether Russia is imperialist or not is completely irrelevant to this conflict. Are we to believe that the US/UK are not? It’s easy to look like you’re “supporting Russia” in general when you’re calling out western propaganda. It’s also easy for people to fall into a trap of actually supporting Russia when they’re defending it from propaganda. This entire narrative should be ignored for the purposes of discussing this conflict.
u/Ganem1227 - originally from r/GenZhou
It would be naive to say Russia doesn’t have imperialist ambitions, however they are forced by circumstance into the anti-imperialist camp. They’re boxed in by the west, they have nationalized industries that the west wants, and their own people don’t want their government to go on military adventures abroad, at least on the same scale as the US.United Russia is strong now because they have to make alliances with the Russian working class to resist Western pressure. It’s very telling that the KPRF is the second largest party and is rising in popularity.
u/cfgaussian - originally from r/GenZhou
The most clear proof of the Russian bourgeoisie’s imperialist ambitions is Putin’s own admission of wanting to join NATO in 2000. If that had happened they would gladly have become part of the imperialist bloc with the Russian bourgeoisie taking their share of the spoils. However that is not what the US had in mind for Russia, they were never going to treat them as a (lesser) partner in their imperialist ventures like they do the Europeans, but as the target of their imperialism and neo-colonialism, as they are treating Ukraine now, as another periphery to export capital to, monopolize its markets, extract its resources. They wanted to dismantle Russia as a power and turn it into a neo-colony. They could never abide another strong nation in their imperialist camp, only vassals, and Russia could never have been one.Thus Russia was forced by circumstance into the anti-imperialist camp, and they are quite firmly in it now that their alliance with China has solidified, they are offering help and support to other targets of US imperialism like Syria, Iran, Venezuela, Nicaragua, etc. This is not to say that the situation in Russia itself is very rosy, it is still ruled by capitalists, reactionaries and anti-communists, the conditions for workers are not great, in effect in Russia the national bourgeoisie has won out over the comprador bourgeoisie. Of course the situation would undoubtedly be even worse if a neoliberal western puppet were to take over, but still, while we as non-Russians should support Russia’s foreign policy, it is up to the Russians themselves to kick out the oligarchs ruling them and bring back communism.
u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Define imperialism.u/Alwaysdeadly - originally from r/GenZhou
Imperialism in the sense that communists use it doesn’t just mean ‘a state acting in its interests’ or ‘expansionism’. Lenin’s “Imperialism…” is only 90 pages, and may help your understanding of modern ‘imperialism’.u/unicorns_do_meth - originally from r/GenZhou
Read lenin’s imperialism the highest stage. Russia is not imperialist. Imperialism doesnt mean a big country bullying other countries. It is a global economic system (at this point run by the US) Now that doesnt make russia “good” but thats irrelevant.[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[removed]u/Staerebu - originally from r/GenZhou
I think it’s more regional imperialism than the usual suspects and their global colonial imperialism - I think it’s also a lot more complex because the USSR existed - would it be imperialism if Xi died, and his successor dismantled China in 2023, and then in 2046 there was a coup in Tibet which installed a fascist government, while Chinese people near Tibet also rebelled against the government, and the Chinese successor state rolled into those disputed territories?Not a perfect analogy, but indicates some of the complexity. I think the bottom line is to look at development and harm to residents and then assess actions based on that, if you want to try to somehow rank things on a moral worthiness scale.
