u/nottomat - originally from r/GenZhou
“What about in Hong Kong where they made it so that the leaders are no longer publicly elected? What about Tiannenmen Square were hundreds of people were killed for protesting the Dengist regime? What about how China’s internet is blocked by a firewall meaning you cannot search for various things the government doesn’t want you to search for? What about how journalists punish foreign journalists by removing their press credentials when they say something critical of the government’s policies? What about when in 2019 the All China Journalists Association updated its code of ethics saying that they have to take an exam proving that they are guided by Xi Jinping thought”
How would you counter these statements?
u/yesthepeople - originally from r/GenZhou
Tiananmen Square is a farce. They didn’t even protest “the Dengist regime” or whatever that is. They (the many students and young adults) protested the increase in farmer wealth due to recent privatization of that industry. Just do the darn readings guys.Chinese internet restricts the inflow of (most) Western internet because it is inherently pervasive. Companies like Google, Facebook etc. get caught nearly every month selling or stealing users’ information. Tesla the most recent example of this. This is why those companies aren’t allowed in.
“Journalists.” Adrian Zenz is no journalist for example, but an arm of Western imperialism. (We could also mention his gross anti-semitism and blatant racism). In theory, with the CPC supposedly quashing all and any dissent, they wouldn’t allow “news” agencies like Radio Free Asia and the Epoch Times into their country, but that’s not the case unfortunately. Should we mention what happened to Julian Assange?
[from r/GenZhou
] - originally
im studying this period academically rn and ur a bit off on the tiannmen square thing, it was largely triggerd by economic problems that caused a drop in quality of life for many workers and studnets, but it was also largely a protest cuased by disillusionment with the CCP, mostly they just wanted increased freedom of expression and increased accountability for party cadres, as there had been an increase in corruption. there where some more extreme members of the protest demanded democracy, but they where the minority, there may have been some public anger at how many farmers had become extreemly rich as they could sell off land that was planned to be used for a big consturction project or something, and other examples of cadres doing similar things to enrich themselves using their greater isnight into economic plans, but that was not the main reason.
other than that good comment
u/yesthepeople - originally from r/GenZhou
I appreciate the correction.
u/nottomat - originally from r/GenZhou
Apparently he meant this “I wasnt referring to those hackjobs of journalists like Zenz or fake news outlets like Epoch Times and such. I was referring to regular normal journalists who are denied travel to the country because they made one peice of journalism that they didnt like”u/yesthepeople - originally from r/GenZhou
And who are these journalists? You can’t accuse somebody of something without evidence.
u/jerkirkirk - originally from r/GenZhou
Those are genuine questions, please don’t feel attacked.-if Tiananmen Square Massacre has different motivations, why is that forgotten? West has a looong history of “mistakes” and bad people being killed. If you actually think that the protestors were on the wrong side of the history, why anyway shouldn’t that happening be remembered? And do you agree with how they acted with civilians, whatever was the reason?
-https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/8/27/concerns-for-media-as-foreign-journalist-denied-visa-in-hong-kong https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/06/us/politics/china-us-journalists-visas-expulsions.html Even if those journalist where ALL “wester propaganda affiliated”, shouldn’t a free country let them in anyway? However you think about those journalists, do you think that a free country should deny visas to journalists because of their past articles?
-Isn’t restricting internet actually something against freedom? Like what you said is also done by many Chinese apps, but they are not blocked in the west. May I ask you why this is different? How is the west LESS free without a firewall separating the internet from China’s one?
As you may understand, I don’t agree with your view, I value freedom (the western way) above everything, but I’m definitely a socialist and I’m actually interested in your opinion.
Bonus question: personally I don’t trust any government more than any other. I always wonder why do you trust the Chinese government more than any other? How do you know that they are not also manipulating you as USA does? I am European. Absolutely not a fan of USA.
u/yesthepeople - originally from r/GenZhou
if Tiananmen Square Massacre has different motivations, why is that forgotten? West has a looong history of “mistakes” and bad people being killed. If you actually think that the protestors were on the wrong side of the history, why anyway shouldn’t that happening be remembered?
Because that’s often how history works. Media in the West, always have, and will forever spin stories to demonize countries that are not their friend. For example, the 1996 Russian elections were rigged by the United States, but now they accuse Russia of interfering in American elections. Another example is that the USSR was dissolved illegally, but the West will tell people “Soviets just didn’t want communism anymore.”
And do you agree with how they acted with civilians, whatever was the reason?
I don’t agree with how they acted because there were much simpler ways to make their point heard, as opposed to burning unarmed soldiers alive.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/8/27/concerns-for-media-as-foreign-journalist-denied-visa-in-hong-kong https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/06/us/politics/china-us-journalists-visas-expulsions.html Even if those journalist where ALL “wester propaganda affiliated”, shouldn’t a free country let them in anyway? However you think about those journalists, do you think that a free country should deny visas to journalists because of their past articles?
They were not denied Visas for posts articles, but because the US was expelling Chinese journalists and reporters first. It even mentions this in the NYT article (albeit fairly hidden). “The journalist said he was told by Chinese officials that if the Trump administration decided to expel Chinese journalists, Beijing would take reciprocal action.”
Isn’t restricting internet actually something against freedom? Like what you said is also done by many Chinese apps, but they are not blocked in the west. May I ask you why this is different? How is the west LESS free without a firewall separating the internet from China’s one?
It’s not a restriction of internet. The firewall blocks the influx of certain companies. Not just Western media and apps as a whole. Google, Facebook, Tesla, and others, would not comply with China’s request (or demand) to remove the tracking features from their programs. Hence the reason they’re not allowed.
Bonus question: personally I don’t trust any government more than any other. I always wonder why do you trust the Chinese government more than any other? How do you know that they are not also manipulating you as USA does? I am European. Absolutely not a fan of USA.
I can trust them more than most governments because they have taken legitimate steps to change policies, laws, rules, etc. to meet the demands of their people. There has been a clear increase the material conditions of most of the Chinese citizens especially over the past 20 years. I trust them more, but it doesn’t mean I support everything they do obviously.
Another point is that the government is not manipulated and coerced by the potential growth of capital like some other governments very often are. For example, COVID. How is the response to covid in countries not manipulated by capital different to those that are. We see more strict lockdowns (even at the expense of economic growth) which has saved thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Vietnam fit this description as well.
u/jerkirkirk - originally from r/GenZhou
Ok thanks, very interesting!
u/s0y_b0y_c0der - originally from r/GenZhou
Tiananmen Square actually was a Western plot to destabilize China. That’s why when you google “Tiananmen Square” on Chinese Google that nothing comes up. It’s definitely not because the Chinese military murdered innocent children. Xi Jinping definitely does NOT look like Winnie the Pooh. Can I please sell my American mobile games in your country now senpai?u/dornish1919 - originally from r/GenZhou
Have you considered going back to r/China, bigot?
u/Butt_Stuff_Pirate - originally from r/GenZhou
- Does the US’s system of public elections translate to benefits for working class people? Does a system where a political outsider with enough money can rally mass support and win make the US more “free”? Should politicians with connects to foreign powers be allowed to run for office?
- Tiannenmen Square was a tragedy, but to paint the rebels in the square who murdered soldiers as peaceful “pro-democracy” protestors is a farce. Also how many US activists have died mysteriously, how many killed out right during protests, what about the bombing of the black nationalist movement in Philadelphia? The US points a finger at Tiannenment Square but has 3 pointed back at itself. Also is there any country that would allow a secession movement to proliferate?
- VPNs are legal in China and anyone can buy one for cheap if they wanna get access to porn or whatever. The firewall just creates a safe space for the average public, it doesn’t actually restrict anyone who wants to get around it.
- Why should foreign journalists have the right to criticize a government. Should the US let CGTN attend White House press conferences and bash our policies?
I think a definition of what is meant by “free” is important too, in the US we are free to say what ever we want, unless it is actually threatening to power. Do our “freedoms” actually translate to living better and more fulfilling lives?
u/PatOnReddit - originally from r/GenZhou
The last point that u/butt_stuff_pirate made is an excellent one. You can say what you want but the moment it threatens the power, you’re silenced or killed. Look at any vaguely socialist movement in the 1900s across the US. MLK, killed. Malcolm X, killed. Fred Hampton, killed. Assasta Shakur, political asylum in Cuba. There are so so so many examples of this to name. These are just the most popular example.u/Milbso - originally from r/GenZhou
You don’t even have to be in the US. If a socialist gets enough attention anywhere in the world the US will probably have a few plans to get rid of them.u/PatOnReddit - originally from r/GenZhou
If not the US, the French or UK would do it.
u/33rdJanuary - originally from r/GenZhou
Should the US let CGTN attend White House press conferences and bash our policies?
Well, imo yeah
u/Slip_Inner - originally from r/GenZhou
Various resources on hong Kong, tiananmen, and othersu/rivainirogue - originally from r/GenZhou
In America you have the “freedom” to vote for politicians who gerrymander the bajesus out of states until they’re only in power on a technicality.In America you have the “freedom” to protest and get snatched up by stormtroopers, to loose your eyes to rubber bullets, and to get maimed by police dogs.
In America you have the “freedom” to rot your mind with QAnon conspiracies until you’re foaming at the mouth and jumping at shadows.
In America you have the “freedom” of press until you uncover CIA scandals and die under mysterious circumstances like Gary S Webb.
To say that China is less free than America is to delude yourself. The “bad” things about China have been filtered through so many propaganda outlets that no one in the west has a real understanding of the country.
EDIT: But to really help someone deprogram from all the western propaganda, they have to seriously be willing to listen to the other side. That’s a hard first step. Maybe this reading on Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t will help.
u/Sihplak - originally from r/GenZhou
Hong Kong under British rule was never allowed any elections until it was useful as a political propaganda tool. With Hong Kong being properly returned to China, it is seeing far more democracy. This isn’t to say there would not be restrictions or limitations, but rather that to not contextualize them is farcical.Let’s take a hypothetical situation where you are part of a people who successfully revolted against and overthrew a settler-colonialist government, and have decided to establish your own; would you allow the colonist-sympathizers to have a say in government or allow their parties? Fuck no, those were the people who maintained slave-conditions, who stole land from the natives, etc.
Hong Kong is not dissimilar, though its relations are more in the hyper-capitalist relations that the UK’s rule had allowed to be established. Working conditions, housing prices, etc have been terrible in Hong Kong, and it has acted as a haven for those guilty of financial crimes such as embezzlement, tax evasion, corruption, etc. China taking control of it makes it more democratic by taking political power away from those who would seek to establish totalitarian power relations.
What about how China’s internet is blocked by a firewall meaning you cannot search for various things the government doesn’t want you to search for?
People have VPNs in China and those who use VPNs encounter little to no issues. Further, most people do not understand why China has its “great Firewall”
What about how journalists punish foreign journalists by removing their press credentials when they say something critical of the government’s policies?
There is plenty of internal critique within China, and China has allowed foreign journalists to ask tough questions (e.g. the BBC Xinjiang report). What isn’t allowed is thinly veiled if not completely open and insulting propaganda; journalists should be expected to ask questions to come to some conclusion, not fabricate a conclusion and twist evidence to fit it.
What about when in 2019 the All China Journalists Association updated its code of ethics saying that they have to take an exam proving that they are guided by Xi Jinping thought
The claim seems to be based on this. Using automate google translate, I do not see any requirements to take any “exam” to prove “guidance by Xi Jinping thought”, but what is indicated is the guidance the CPC directs for journalists. In other words, they have a code of ethics for journalistic integrity, which, if reading the full set of policies, indicates that journalists are required to try to provide an unbiased position, to not exaggerate stories or to be sensationalist, to promote Socialism, and to focus on dialogue with the public. In a way, elements resemble elements of the “Mass Line”, and otherwise the updated policies seem largely non-controversial. If promotes encouraging the ideas and positions of the CPC, but in that regard most states have some manner to engender some form of national unity in their media. For all the superficial conflict between “Democrat” and “Republican” biased news sources in the U.S., they fundamentally comprise one broader hegemon of Capitalism and imperialism. In this regard, the U.S.'s media is often more manipulated and more difficult to parse than Chinese media might be since U.S. media actively obfuscates its constant conflicts of interests and ideological skew, whereas China is clear about it promoting a Socialist worldview.
In this regard, the bulk of any news media from any nation will promote the national line, and thereby, opposition, skepticism, support, or neutrality towards such sources is defined ideologically, not based on objectivity. One supports Fox News not because Fox News is some truth-telling, compelling, dissenting voice in the U.S., they support Fox News because of ideological alignment. One supports the NYT because they promote an American-centric biased view on global events. As such, Chinese news has its distinct outlook, and they are more transparent about it than Western news ever is. This, I think, is far more honest and trustworthy than Western news media.
u/dornish1919 - originally from r/GenZhou
Your boyfriend sounds like a neoliberal who should read a book not promoted by NPR or Jacobin.Also Dengist regime? Seriously?
Hong Kongers never really had free elections under British colonial rule so idk why he thinks being occupied by a violent nation from the UK is somehow preferable.
u/s0y_b0y_c0der - originally from r/GenZhou
“china is more free than western countries”“How would you counter these statements?”
Easy, just replace China with Taiwan. Taiwan is a wonderful nation completely separate from China. They’re a great country a.k.a. INDEPENDENT NATION STATE. I love the country of Taiwan. That’s what it is. A country. Not part of China at all :)
u/Random_User_34 - originally from r/GenZhou
Not part of China at all
Republic of China
u/Tiny_Pea_7518 - originally from r/GenZhou
Why’s he your boyfriend?u/nottomat - originally from r/GenZhou
Wdym?u/s0y_b0y_c0der - originally from r/GenZhou
They mean he’s not CCP approved. Seems like he’s guilty of some thought crime. Have you thought about sending him to a Uyghur reprogramming “not concentration” camp? I hear there’s a great camp in Xinjiang with the cotton “workers”. Jack Ma is laying low over there on his “extended vacation”.Does anyone else think Xi Jinping definitely does NOT look like Winnie the Pooh?
u/Random_User_34 - originally from r/GenZhou
Winnie the Pooh
/r/XiIsFinished
u/s0y_b0y_c0der - originally from r/GenZhou
Taiwan is a great countryu/Random_User_34 - originally from r/GenZhou
Taiwan is China
u/joephusweberr - originally from r/GenZhou
My gf had an epiphany the other day. She is Chinese, came to the states when she was 25. We were watching the news and she said, “We have freedoms in China, but in America you can openly criticize your president. We don’t do that in China, and you do it here”. She had long believed, as you do, that there is no difference between the freedoms in China and the freedoms in the US. Slowly, based on evidence, she is realizing that is not the case. Slowly, she is realizing that the reason they don’t criticize their leadership in China is because they don’t actually have the same freedoms we enjoy. It is important when you look at the world, to look at it as it is, not as you wish it were.u/pangurb - originally from r/GenZhou
very interesting. what does she think of cointelpro, fred hampton, or malcolm X? they certainly enjoyed their freedom of critique, hm?u/joephusweberr - originally from r/GenZhou
I swear to god it’s going to be 200 years from now and leftists will still be talking about the 1960s.u/pangurb - originally from r/GenZhou
youd like something more recent, then look up the chicago black sites and the ferguson riot leaders. go on.u/joephusweberr - originally from r/GenZhou
Hands up don’t shoot was a lie.u/Azirahael - originally from r/GenZhou
Notice how you did not actually answer the question?
That’s a clue right there.
And remember, you don’t have freedom of speech in the USA.
Say something they don’t like, and you are gone from twitter, YT, FB, etc.
You have the ‘freedom’ to scream into the void.
But as soon as you start making headway, you will suddenly be deplatformed.
u/Hortaleza - originally from r/GenZhou
You’re so right, Cointelpro definitely ended in the 60s and is no longer going on