Yeah, I’m a bit shocked at the other celebrators. I mean I won’t say the Israeli settlers and the gov’t didn’t deserve it, but honestly I’m a bit cautious of doing that…
happy there had finally been any kind of response to the regular killings of Palestinian civilians
What is there to be happy about? When this is over we’ll return to the regular scheduled sporadic killing of Palestinian civilians, but in the meantime we’re going to be inundated in a wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians, with some Israeli citizens thrown in as well. That’s the material consequences of the current uprising, which are universally bad.
natives shouldn’t fight against their oppressors, because their opressors will opress them
I didn’t say anything remotely like that. If you care about actually ending the oppresion, nominally your strategic goals should be ending that oppression, not doomed violence for it’s own sake. We even have a word for this on the left: ‘adventurism’. The Viet Minh opposition to the French may have been violent, but it wasn’t a fruitless and doomed affair, and their leadership went to incredible lengths to make sure their attacks where strategically fruitful.
what are do you people want Palestine to do?
Uhh not this, because it won’t achieve any of their political aims and is just going to get a bunch of civilians killed. I don’t need to posit a better idea to point out how much of a shit-sandwich that this is going to be for the Palestinians and that leftists shouldn’t be treating it like their team scoring a goal in a football match.
On the flip side, can you point to why this is a good thing to be happy about from a material perspective, and not a vibes based ‘psychological’ victory?
Honestly, I think that you’re wrong on the possibility of material victory. This offensive has shown the world that Palestinian resistance is not dead and that they can stand up to deal a devastating blow. If they can disrupt Israel’s attempts to re-align various Arab nations, and if the hostages and threat of Hezbollah intervention can pre-empt a ground invasion in Gaza, then the resistance could make significant material concessions/gains. Depending on how the next few days go, then I think there’s a chance of reforging the broader pro-Palestinian coalition amongst the various countries of the Middle East, especially in light of the Saudi-Iran rapprochement. If changing the geopolitical alignment into one that’s much more favorable to the survival of the Palestinian people isn’t a material gain, than I don’t know what is.
There was clearly an incredible degree of effort and coordination to pull off an operation of this scale without alerting the Israeli security apparatus. I don’t think this operation is particularly irrational or feckless. It’s a gamble, but the alternative to action is a slow death.
They haven’t done that though. They’ve shown they’re capable of bloodying Israel’s nose. They’ve killed scores and taken a base, but Israel’s ability to wage a war against them has not been reduced one iota. This isn’t some distant colony half a world away were a big psychological victory is enough to cause a pull-back. They’re right on the border, and are treated as an imminent security threat by Israel, so in order to prevent them from waving war you have to actually reduce their ability to, not just their desire.
if the hostages and threat of Hezbollah intervention can pre-empt a ground invasion in Gaza,
Which, if you know anything about Israeli governments, especially right wing ones, you know has a 0% chance of being effective. They’ve killed their own men before to avoid this. A ground invasion is absolutely coming.
If I was a civilian benefiting from and supporting an apartheid regime, it would be very tragic for the brutal savages we keep locked up in a city sized cage to escape and kill me.
Quick question though, if Israel’s gov’t was gone and replaced, would it be better to name it “Palestine” or “Israel-Palestine” to be more inclusive, like how Rhodesia was once temporarily “Zimbabwe-Rhodesia”… ?
I can only come to the same conclusion. Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory, heck it’s even another thing to occupy the territory of your oppressors, but I don’t see how anyone can excuse going out of your way to target random civilians in their homes or to shoot at any moving human you can see.
Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory
The palestinians do not have territory. They do not have borders to defend nor any standing as human beings before the regime in Tel Aviv. They live in open air concentration camps under permanent blockade of water, supplies and electricty. It’s not surprising that you enjoy misrepresenting the conflict given that your only recourse so far has been a knee jerk reaction to anyone who even so much smells as pro palestinian.
‘rooting for the underdog in a war’ is a rather inhuman way of putting it. this isn’t a sports game. this is a reaction to a monstrous apartheid regime.
Yes, you’re the one acting like with levity towards every murdered palestinian in this decades long american-israeli war of extermination.
‘what am i to say to this injured occupier family i’ve seen in every news media around the world?’ ‘oh no the minorities will be really genocided now they shouldn’t have reacted!’ ‘what will they tell that poor occupation soldier’s family?? this will only make them more vengeful!’. gaslight after gaslight. we’ve heard it all before. from ireland to pretoria.
Yeah, I’m a bit shocked at the other celebrators. I mean I won’t say the Israeli settlers and the gov’t didn’t deserve it, but honestly I’m a bit cautious of doing that…
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That’s not true at all.
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What is there to be happy about? When this is over we’ll return to the regular scheduled sporadic killing of Palestinian civilians, but in the meantime we’re going to be inundated in a wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians, with some Israeli citizens thrown in as well. That’s the material consequences of the current uprising, which are universally bad.
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I didn’t say anything remotely like that. If you care about actually ending the oppresion, nominally your strategic goals should be ending that oppression, not doomed violence for it’s own sake. We even have a word for this on the left: ‘adventurism’. The Viet Minh opposition to the French may have been violent, but it wasn’t a fruitless and doomed affair, and their leadership went to incredible lengths to make sure their attacks where strategically fruitful.
Uhh not this, because it won’t achieve any of their political aims and is just going to get a bunch of civilians killed. I don’t need to posit a better idea to point out how much of a shit-sandwich that this is going to be for the Palestinians and that leftists shouldn’t be treating it like their team scoring a goal in a football match.
On the flip side, can you point to why this is a good thing to be happy about from a material perspective, and not a vibes based ‘psychological’ victory?
Honestly, I think that you’re wrong on the possibility of material victory. This offensive has shown the world that Palestinian resistance is not dead and that they can stand up to deal a devastating blow. If they can disrupt Israel’s attempts to re-align various Arab nations, and if the hostages and threat of Hezbollah intervention can pre-empt a ground invasion in Gaza, then the resistance could make significant material concessions/gains. Depending on how the next few days go, then I think there’s a chance of reforging the broader pro-Palestinian coalition amongst the various countries of the Middle East, especially in light of the Saudi-Iran rapprochement. If changing the geopolitical alignment into one that’s much more favorable to the survival of the Palestinian people isn’t a material gain, than I don’t know what is.
There was clearly an incredible degree of effort and coordination to pull off an operation of this scale without alerting the Israeli security apparatus. I don’t think this operation is particularly irrational or feckless. It’s a gamble, but the alternative to action is a slow death.
They haven’t done that though. They’ve shown they’re capable of bloodying Israel’s nose. They’ve killed scores and taken a base, but Israel’s ability to wage a war against them has not been reduced one iota. This isn’t some distant colony half a world away were a big psychological victory is enough to cause a pull-back. They’re right on the border, and are treated as an imminent security threat by Israel, so in order to prevent them from waving war you have to actually reduce their ability to, not just their desire.
Which, if you know anything about Israeli governments, especially right wing ones, you know has a 0% chance of being effective. They’ve killed their own men before to avoid this. A ground invasion is absolutely coming.
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If I was a civilian benefiting from and supporting an apartheid regime, it would be very tragic for the brutal savages we keep locked up in a city sized cage to escape and kill me.
No, only the dead Jews/Communists/Slavs/Roma/Disabled/ are a tragedy, the Germans deserve whatever they get because they aren’t people
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none at all.
Prove it or shove it.
yeah how about you prove it if you’re going to accuse people here of being bloodthirsty monsters? “c’mon man” isn’t very compelling
Literally no one here would be disappointed at that.
Way to build up a strawman of hexbear, what’s your problem?
these accusations are unhinged.
lol lmao even - new site tagline please mods
Quick question though, if Israel’s gov’t was gone and replaced, would it be better to name it “Palestine” or “Israel-Palestine” to be more inclusive, like how Rhodesia was once temporarily “Zimbabwe-Rhodesia”… ?
Palestine.
people’s republic of the levant
But it doesn’t include Lebanon yet, doesn’t it, let alone Jordan, or Syria? So, what would you call it at the moment…
US of A doesn’t include most of the Americas (on paper), the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea only includes half the Korean peninsula.
Fair enough…
I think a lot of people here would say Palestine because they are imagining an outcome without any Jewish people still living there.
The strawest of mans ever conceived! Wowza!
Fuck off with this projection shit
Guess what! Palestinian Jews are also treated as second class citizens under Zionism!
Pretending that Zionism is equivalent to being Jewish is antisemitism.
Nah
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I can only come to the same conclusion. Its one thing to attack a military checkpoint directly on the border with your territory, heck it’s even another thing to occupy the territory of your oppressors, but I don’t see how anyone can excuse going out of your way to target random civilians in their homes or to shoot at any moving human you can see.
The palestinians do not have territory. They do not have borders to defend nor any standing as human beings before the regime in Tel Aviv. They live in open air concentration camps under permanent blockade of water, supplies and electricty. It’s not surprising that you enjoy misrepresenting the conflict given that your only recourse so far has been a knee jerk reaction to anyone who even so much smells as pro palestinian.
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‘rooting for the underdog in a war’ is a rather inhuman way of putting it. this isn’t a sports game. this is a reaction to a monstrous apartheid regime.
I’m not the one acting like every injured Israeli is a point towards Palestinian liberation
Yes, you’re the one acting like with levity towards every murdered palestinian in this decades long american-israeli war of extermination.
‘what am i to say to this injured occupier family i’ve seen in every news media around the world?’ ‘oh no the minorities will be really genocided now they shouldn’t have reacted!’ ‘what will they tell that poor occupation soldier’s family?? this will only make them more vengeful!’. gaslight after gaslight. we’ve heard it all before. from ireland to pretoria.
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you’re never going to get me to care about dead colonizers
REAL