What do you mean “for a living hell no”? You think ancient humans didn’t have to work to survive? You think life is some gift to you and you deserve it? Survival is work. You just want free food and shelter while others are working to provide enough for themselves and for you? If surviving is too much work for you, don’t do it. No one is forcing you.
Your point is invalidated by the invention of the combine harvester, among other things. I’d also be happy going to the fields and helping out, or tending my own garden with my neighbors. It’s actually already in my to-do list over the next few years. Also is that a “kill yourself” veiled in your last sentence? Certainly seems like it to me.
So you expect others to just hand you stuff for free? Is that it? I mean, the world does require people to work to, you know, make goods that we consume… Or did you think that Mac Donald’s hamburgers are just magically willed into existence? Police are just NPC computer characters?
Actually, yes. Yes I do. Because it already happens, and because that’s how it used to work. My neighborhood couldn’t afford to repave our streets, but it happens anyway. Farmers certainly couldn’t afford to plant all the corn they do, but they do anyway because of government subsidies. Medieval peasants worked far less than we have to and enjoyed far more freedoms, and here we are toiling away despite the fact that one farmer now could feed a whole kingdom. What you’re missing is our dollar and economy are not tied to actual, physical things. There’s this whole imaginary line graph in the heads of certain people that has to keep going up at all costs.
I think I understand better than you do what goes into a McDonald’s hamburger judging by your spelling of it. I also work with my local PD on a daily basis, and I can tell you to them it’s just a way to collect a paycheck to live.
In sesame street? Have you ever opened a history book on any place in the world?
Medieval peasants worked far less than we have to and enjoyed far more freedoms
Yeah now I know that you’re drunk or 5 years old. Medieval peasants either were slaves, worked as a semi slave for a lord who could squeeze them out, or worked for themselves and were unprotected from the “funs” of the time. ALL of them had to work sun up to sun down to be able to survive. This fantasy where you are living in where medieval peasants had more free time than any of us is just bullshit, there is no other word for it. We actually have 8 hour work days and 2 free days per week (soon will become 3, then 4). Peasants had a 7 day work week, pretty much. Ah, if they were lucky the Sunday church visit would spare them an hour.
one farmer now could feed a whole kingdom
Oh god where do you get your info from? Or, what have you been smoking and please don’t give me any of that, I want my brain cells.
You heard some things about “capitalism bad because some rich guys” and apparently really think that that is how the world works. Abuse of capitalism is bad, yes. But the core of it is literally what allowed you to have a mobile phone in your hands so that you can removed about the evils of capitalism. Grow up.
I think I understand better than you do what goes into a McDonald’s hamburger judging by your spelling of it.
Ah the famous “You made a typo, so I’m right!” argument
Look, I get it, you’re on an “antiwork” sub, but you really don’t understand how this world works. If you think that something like communism is the solution oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you! Maybe you should open up a history book. Actually, go to wikipedia, search for famines in the last century. Hint: The fun ones are communist! All of it. Maybe look up communist chekist. Watch the movie, crawl in a fetal position for 2 weeks and maybe then you have some idea about how fucked up shit can be and that capitalism, with all its flaws and failures, maybe really isn’t that bad.
you should have to work (to make money, transactionally, anything not valued by capitalism and rich people doesn’t even count, if you don’t or can’t fit this model it doesnt count) to make a living
is that
if you don’t work (with the previous very large caveats for what counts as ‘work’), you deserve to suffer and die
A lot of people don’t think about the implications of that statement when they make it, but that is the logical end point. My experience is that most people - at least if they aren’t stressed from the existing model - absolutely want to do things, often sharing them for free, without coercion.
But even if not, do you think people should be miserable and die if they can’t or even won’t “work for a living” (for a very particular narrow definition of work that can gain you money under the current system, when stuff created and donated is often more valuable than things payed for due to lack of perverse incentives - e.g. FOSS ^.^).
I’m not even starting on how the current model of labour provides perverse anti-automation incentives. Automation should be liberating, but the way our society values people based on labour (e.g. Protestant Work Ethic) actively forces people (and the non-capitalist class as a whole) to avoid tools or processes that should improve our collective lives :/ - imo this is one of the most fucked up things about capitalism.
And who is working to build that automation, who is working to integrate that automation? Who is building the mechanic stuff, the electric stuff the robots and linear tranfer axes, the PlCs and the sensors?
I asked sapient_cogbag who would do the automation work he likes to be implemented? Because someone has to get up in the morning and actually do that work, it doesn’t grow on it’s own.
And you’re asking me about threats of starvation and homelessness … I don’t get it …
The current way we coerce (by threatening starvation and homelessness) is not the only way to make people do things. I agree that free everything forever with sprinkles is probably not going to work or allow us to maintain our current quality of life (I too like pop-tarts medicine, and computers). It’s not a binary. There are options in between that can be used to motivate people to do even unpleasant things.
I think we coerce way to much and I think a lot of coercion that we do benefits only a few people and not the many.
I’m not coerced, I choose to. I could very well live off the land. The only difference would be the life standard and what I can afford, but hey smartphones, internet and restaurants are a first world luxuries not real life needs.
The people who want to? I mean loads of people like developing infrastructure, hell, I am very much included in that number (more FOSS/software stuff and I’m not always the most effective for various executive dysfunction reasons but still)
People don’t need to be threatened with starvation to do stuff, and not having that threat enables people to do stuff they think is valuable rather than what some rich arsehole wanting to fuck over everyone else thinks is valuable or what will happen to make money <.<
Capitalism is also THE most successful system in our history. Without capitalism you’d be dead. Me too. Without capitalism the would wouldn’t be able to sustain more than a few hundred million people. Do not underestimate all the processes we have in place that make it that you have your Hamburger.on your place to eat and survive. Hospitals would cease to function without it.
So let’s call capitalism a necessary evil of you like. I know there are loads of communist types around here that live in the fantasy world where communism can do this and we’ll, it can’t. If you want, just even look at the history of Communism over the entire world. Every single communist government has failed and has caused only pain and suffering on the practical level.
I fully agree with you that you don’t just want to ket people die so that is the solution?
I’d say a limited capitalist system where we place hard limits on what companies can do, hard limits on sizes and incomes and what people can own through -for example- taxes. The more you earn, the more you pay until taxes reach 100%
With that huge income you finance a socialist state where all the basics are free. Free healthcare , free education, etc. Food and housing is paid with Universal income so that everyone can at least afford a basic nice level of living. Anyone who wants extra can work extra in the capitalist system and earn extra if they want, but not need.
That just my 2 cents, but you’ll still need capitalism. Take that away and you’ll destroy the world and kill millions.
You do understand that Elon musk is full of shit, right? AI isn’t going to take away all jobs within the next year.
We automate the crap out of stuff but without humans, the system is dead within days and that isn’t going to change for decades to come, still.
You can put up your hand to beg but people aren’t going to give you stuff just because you’re too lazy or too naive about the world. Maybe 20 years from now there will be universal income because both automation and AI became good enough to really take away jobs. But until then, get your ass back to work, like everybody else
You do understand that Elon musk is full of shit, right?
Hahahahaha. It is so funny the first thing you mention is Musk. He sure looks like Musk:
AI isn’t going to take away all jobs within the next year.
AI is not automation, it doesn’t do a shit.
We automate the crap out of stuff but without humans, the system is dead within days and that isn’t going to change for decades to come, still.
From the top of my head: steel plant. Just bring whatever needed to automatic loader and ship whatever stuff comes out with occasional taking of samples to check against desired specs.
Secong thing from top of my head: CNCs. They have been around for at least 50 years.
Mechanization is much simpler: just replace an army of street cleaners with operator and machine .
What? Not as eye-catching and you cannot flame in comments about Elon? This is reality, not a wet dream of billionare.
Maybe 20 years from now there will be universal income because both automation and AI became good enough to really take away jobs.
Except if we go into that age without economic reforms made beforehand, then it will become feudalism.
But until then, get your ass back to work, like everybody else
Sorry to disappoint you, but my work gets to me. That’s called remote work.
AI is a subset of logical systems that can control hardware. You know, fly a plane, bake cookies in a factory, that sort of crap. Computer programming does everything.
From the top of my head: steel plant. Just bring whatever needed to automatic loader and ship whatever stuff comes out with occasional taking of samples to check against desired specs.
Yeah, and drawing a photo realistic horse too is done by drawing a circle and then drawing the rest of the horse. Seriously, “ship whatever stuff comes out”… Do you have any idea what goes on in a steel plant? Do you really think that there is no automation going on there now? Do you really think that a steel plant doesn’t require humans to do what is done right now?
I don’t really know what you are trying to say with the street cleaners? Sometimes loads of cheap people are used because then at least you got peopoe with a paid job?
Except if we go into that age without economic reforms made beforehand, then it will become feudalism.
There you go. Something that sounds remotely reasonable. I don’t worry too much about feudalism. If you want reforms, start with the government (I suppose you are in the US). Get rid of the “winner takes all” elections so that you start having many more political parties that now spread the power and have to cooperate. This gives more political stability. This over time will push to more economic stability as well, more tax on rich, less divide between rich and poor.
Sorry to disappoint you, but my work gets to me. That’s called remote work.
So you don’t “get” behind your computer? Either way, you still work, then.
AI is a subset of logical systems that can control hardware. You know, fly a plane, bake cookies in a factory, that sort of crap.
Eeeyp. Control “logic”.
Computer programming does everything.
Nope. Computer still need devices that will do actual shit. Do YOUR gaming pc with NNs and raytracing bakes cookies? Relay computer from 70-ies hooked up to oven does.
Do you have any idea what goes on in a steel plant?
It seems I oversimplified and took not good example. CNCs are better example. My point is a lot of stuff can be automated, a lot of stuff already was automated and it has nothing to do with certan billionare because he crawled or wasn’t even born when automation started. And it doesn’t require AI.
If you want reforms, start with the government
I think it is part of much broader problem with monopolies. We see start that does not exists, we don’t see end, but it exists. Everything should be fixed, there is no “let’s fix one thing and everything else will work because of it”.
(I suppose you are in the US).
No, but where I am has all bad stuff from US. *cough*corruption, oligarchy, Putin*cough*
Get rid of the “winner takes all” elections
Monopolies, monopolies everywhere.
so that you start having many more political parties that now spread the power and have to cooperate. This gives more political stability.
I don’t think stability has its value in itself. If everything stable junk, stable corruption, stable irremovable “great leader”, there is no point in stability.
So you don’t “get” behind your computer? Either way, you still work, then.
You got me, I still “get” to workplace. Sadly, getting from work is harder, unless I knock myself unconscious.
You think you should not work for a living?
For a living? Hell no, but I’d work for enjoyment if I didn’t have to work to live.
What do you mean “for a living hell no”? You think ancient humans didn’t have to work to survive? You think life is some gift to you and you deserve it? Survival is work. You just want free food and shelter while others are working to provide enough for themselves and for you? If surviving is too much work for you, don’t do it. No one is forcing you.
Your point is invalidated by the invention of the combine harvester, among other things. I’d also be happy going to the fields and helping out, or tending my own garden with my neighbors. It’s actually already in my to-do list over the next few years. Also is that a “kill yourself” veiled in your last sentence? Certainly seems like it to me.
So you expect others to just hand you stuff for free? Is that it? I mean, the world does require people to work to, you know, make goods that we consume… Or did you think that Mac Donald’s hamburgers are just magically willed into existence? Police are just NPC computer characters?
Actually, yes. Yes I do. Because it already happens, and because that’s how it used to work. My neighborhood couldn’t afford to repave our streets, but it happens anyway. Farmers certainly couldn’t afford to plant all the corn they do, but they do anyway because of government subsidies. Medieval peasants worked far less than we have to and enjoyed far more freedoms, and here we are toiling away despite the fact that one farmer now could feed a whole kingdom. What you’re missing is our dollar and economy are not tied to actual, physical things. There’s this whole imaginary line graph in the heads of certain people that has to keep going up at all costs.
I think I understand better than you do what goes into a McDonald’s hamburger judging by your spelling of it. I also work with my local PD on a daily basis, and I can tell you to them it’s just a way to collect a paycheck to live.
In sesame street? Have you ever opened a history book on any place in the world?
Yeah now I know that you’re drunk or 5 years old. Medieval peasants either were slaves, worked as a semi slave for a lord who could squeeze them out, or worked for themselves and were unprotected from the “funs” of the time. ALL of them had to work sun up to sun down to be able to survive. This fantasy where you are living in where medieval peasants had more free time than any of us is just bullshit, there is no other word for it. We actually have 8 hour work days and 2 free days per week (soon will become 3, then 4). Peasants had a 7 day work week, pretty much. Ah, if they were lucky the Sunday church visit would spare them an hour.
Oh god where do you get your info from? Or, what have you been smoking and please don’t give me any of that, I want my brain cells.
You heard some things about “capitalism bad because some rich guys” and apparently really think that that is how the world works. Abuse of capitalism is bad, yes. But the core of it is literally what allowed you to have a mobile phone in your hands so that you can removed about the evils of capitalism. Grow up.
Ah the famous “You made a typo, so I’m right!” argument
Look, I get it, you’re on an “antiwork” sub, but you really don’t understand how this world works. If you think that something like communism is the solution oh boy do I have a bridge to sell you! Maybe you should open up a history book. Actually, go to wikipedia, search for famines in the last century. Hint: The fun ones are communist! All of it. Maybe look up communist chekist. Watch the movie, crawl in a fetal position for 2 weeks and maybe then you have some idea about how fucked up shit can be and that capitalism, with all its flaws and failures, maybe really isn’t that bad.
Get a job!
The logical conclusion of
is that
A lot of people don’t think about the implications of that statement when they make it, but that is the logical end point. My experience is that most people - at least if they aren’t stressed from the existing model - absolutely want to do things, often sharing them for free, without coercion.
But even if not, do you think people should be miserable and die if they can’t or even won’t “work for a living” (for a very particular narrow definition of work that can gain you money under the current system, when stuff created and donated is often more valuable than things payed for due to lack of perverse incentives - e.g. FOSS ^.^).
I’m not even starting on how the current model of labour provides perverse anti-automation incentives. Automation should be liberating, but the way our society values people based on labour (e.g. Protestant Work Ethic) actively forces people (and the non-capitalist class as a whole) to avoid tools or processes that should improve our collective lives :/ - imo this is one of the most fucked up things about capitalism.
And who is working to build that automation, who is working to integrate that automation? Who is building the mechanic stuff, the electric stuff the robots and linear tranfer axes, the PlCs and the sensors?
You know you can get people to do this without threatening them with starvation and homelessness right?
I asked sapient_cogbag who would do the automation work he likes to be implemented? Because someone has to get up in the morning and actually do that work, it doesn’t grow on it’s own.
And you’re asking me about threats of starvation and homelessness … I don’t get it …
*they
The current way we coerce (by threatening starvation and homelessness) is not the only way to make people do things. I agree that free everything forever with sprinkles is probably not going to work or allow us to maintain our current quality of life (I too like pop-tarts medicine, and computers). It’s not a binary. There are options in between that can be used to motivate people to do even unpleasant things.
I think we coerce way to much and I think a lot of coercion that we do benefits only a few people and not the many.
Who coerced you by threats?
No one in particular. But I am coerced into working as are you.
I’m not coerced, I choose to. I could very well live off the land. The only difference would be the life standard and what I can afford, but hey smartphones, internet and restaurants are a first world luxuries not real life needs.
The people who want to? I mean loads of people like developing infrastructure, hell, I am very much included in that number (more FOSS/software stuff and I’m not always the most effective for various executive dysfunction reasons but still)
People don’t need to be threatened with starvation to do stuff, and not having that threat enables people to do stuff they think is valuable rather than what some rich arsehole wanting to fuck over everyone else thinks is valuable or what will happen to make money <.<
I think you missed the point if my comnent.
Thats the fun stuff, but theres lots of stuff that has to be done in a society thats not fun.
It cannot be! People are working for fun:
“love what you do and you would not work a day” , right!? /s
Pure capitalism without rules is bad, sure.
Capitalism is also THE most successful system in our history. Without capitalism you’d be dead. Me too. Without capitalism the would wouldn’t be able to sustain more than a few hundred million people. Do not underestimate all the processes we have in place that make it that you have your Hamburger.on your place to eat and survive. Hospitals would cease to function without it.
So let’s call capitalism a necessary evil of you like. I know there are loads of communist types around here that live in the fantasy world where communism can do this and we’ll, it can’t. If you want, just even look at the history of Communism over the entire world. Every single communist government has failed and has caused only pain and suffering on the practical level.
I fully agree with you that you don’t just want to ket people die so that is the solution?
I’d say a limited capitalist system where we place hard limits on what companies can do, hard limits on sizes and incomes and what people can own through -for example- taxes. The more you earn, the more you pay until taxes reach 100%
With that huge income you finance a socialist state where all the basics are free. Free healthcare , free education, etc. Food and housing is paid with Universal income so that everyone can at least afford a basic nice level of living. Anyone who wants extra can work extra in the capitalist system and earn extra if they want, but not need.
That just my 2 cents, but you’ll still need capitalism. Take that away and you’ll destroy the world and kill millions.
When current amount of automation and efficiency? Yes.
You do understand that Elon musk is full of shit, right? AI isn’t going to take away all jobs within the next year.
We automate the crap out of stuff but without humans, the system is dead within days and that isn’t going to change for decades to come, still.
You can put up your hand to beg but people aren’t going to give you stuff just because you’re too lazy or too naive about the world. Maybe 20 years from now there will be universal income because both automation and AI became good enough to really take away jobs. But until then, get your ass back to work, like everybody else
Hahahahaha. It is so funny the first thing you mention is Musk. He sure looks like Musk:
AI is not automation, it doesn’t do a shit.
From the top of my head: steel plant. Just bring whatever needed to automatic loader and ship whatever stuff comes out with occasional taking of samples to check against desired specs.
Secong thing from top of my head: CNCs. They have been around for at least 50 years.
Mechanization is much simpler: just replace an army of street cleaners
with operator and machine 
.
What? Not as eye-catching and you cannot flame in comments about Elon? This is reality, not a wet dream of billionare.
Except if we go into that age without economic reforms made beforehand, then it will become feudalism.
Sorry to disappoint you, but my work gets to me. That’s called remote work.
Oh boy, where to even start…
AI is a subset of logical systems that can control hardware. You know, fly a plane, bake cookies in a factory, that sort of crap. Computer programming does everything.
Yeah, and drawing a photo realistic horse too is done by drawing a circle and then drawing the rest of the horse. Seriously, “ship whatever stuff comes out”… Do you have any idea what goes on in a steel plant? Do you really think that there is no automation going on there now? Do you really think that a steel plant doesn’t require humans to do what is done right now?
I don’t really know what you are trying to say with the street cleaners? Sometimes loads of cheap people are used because then at least you got peopoe with a paid job?
There you go. Something that sounds remotely reasonable. I don’t worry too much about feudalism. If you want reforms, start with the government (I suppose you are in the US). Get rid of the “winner takes all” elections so that you start having many more political parties that now spread the power and have to cooperate. This gives more political stability. This over time will push to more economic stability as well, more tax on rich, less divide between rich and poor.
So you don’t “get” behind your computer? Either way, you still work, then.
Eeeyp. Control “logic”.
Nope. Computer still need devices that will do actual shit. Do YOUR gaming pc with NNs and raytracing bakes cookies? Relay computer from 70-ies hooked up to oven does.
It seems I oversimplified and took not good example. CNCs are better example. My point is a lot of stuff can be automated, a lot of stuff already was automated and it has nothing to do with certan billionare because he crawled or wasn’t even born when automation started. And it doesn’t require AI.
I think it is part of much broader problem with monopolies. We see start that does not exists, we don’t see end, but it exists. Everything should be fixed, there is no “let’s fix one thing and everything else will work because of it”.
No, but where I am has all bad stuff from US.
*cough*corruption, oligarchy, Putin*cough*Monopolies, monopolies everywhere.
I don’t think stability has its value in itself. If everything stable junk, stable corruption, stable irremovable “great leader”, there is no point in stability.
You got me, I still “get” to workplace. Sadly, getting from work is harder, unless I knock myself unconscious.