Maybe Iām missing context by not being invested in Elon Muskās personal blog, but this seems like an overreaction to a pale blue dot meme. The word choice is a bit inelegant, but it seems to be a generic astronomy account, so Iām assuming it wasnāt chosen with secret intent to encourage mass suicide for some inexplicable reason. Itās a considerable stretch to get from āyou donāt personally have planetary significanceā to āyou are unimportant to those around youā. I donāt expect everyone on Hexbear to necessarily be a committed Marxist, but emphasizing the importance of the collective over the individual is a pretty central aspect any vaguely āleftā political ideology. Acting as though youāre earthās main character and bullying anyone that acts otherwise is already the default behavior weāre raised with by liberal society.
The context is that the people who tend to espouse this line of reasoning tend to be new atheist types who do have extremely emotional and moralizing arguments they make all the time in other spheres of life. Theyāre hypocrites who selectively employ this type of philosophical nihilism (nihilism isnāt āyou should commit suicide btw, itās ānothing matters or has inherent meaningā) when it suits them and ignore it when it doesnāt.
This type of person is very well known and hated on hexbear, the new atheist āsecularā chauvinist who also happens to hate Islam and always talks in a clash of civilizations idealist manner. For some reason nothing matters we are just apes on a rock man, but also those brown apes over there have an evil culture. Sam Harris, Hitchens, Musk, Dawkins, Maher, you know the type.
again, Iāll just point out that youāve inferred an entire personal archetype and detailed political philosophy to get mad at based on an astronomy account tweeting picture of a planet with a caption that can be reduced to āconsider perspectiveā. itās fair to be upset when Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, or other pop-sci entertainers espouse white supremacy while hiding behind a scientific aesthetic. I donāt think itās reasonable to extrapolate from an astronomy tweet that scientist = atheist = nihilist = hypocrite = white chauvinist = fascist. The white supremacy of those individual entertainers is reflective of and inherited from the hegemony of the liberal societies they were raised in. Theyāre not political or cultural thought leaders dragging the Anglophone world into colonizing West Asia out of a personal commitment to science, philosophy, or atheism.
I promise, most of the people by volume who are committed to ethnically cleansing the global south also want to throw scientists, philosophers, and atheists on the pyre, and they have a lot to say about the dangers of society āabandoning moralityā and āembracing nihilismā.
I donāt think itās reasonable to extrapolate from an astronomy tweet that scientist = atheist = nihilist = hypocrite = white chauvinist = fascist.
Itās already starting half-way down that line of inference, at nihilist and hypocrite. Considering itās a western white nihilist account itās not that large of a leap to white chauvinist (thatās the majority of the West).
I think youāre in a bit of denial about how evil and widespread these atheist neocon Liberals are and that they want to ethnically cleanse the global south even more than the local chuds. Most Zionists in the west are not evangelical crazies, theyāre ālogical secular Liberal centristsā. Fascism arises from the warmonger capitalists, not the fringe lunatics. You donāt understand the core of imperialism or fascism if you donāt think these types are extremely dangerous and our primary enemy.
Itās already starting half-way down that line of inference, at nihilist and hypocrite. Considering itās a western white nihilist account itās not that large of a leap to white chauvinist (thatās the majority of the West).
If you assume this is true about an account that (as far as I can tell) exists to post generic space pictures, you could could just as easily make this argument about any tweet. Itās on an American website, so itās probably a white American poster and Americaās fascist, so the poster must be fascist, so the post is self-reinforcing evidence of the posterās white cryptofascism. Somebody posted about math? Bet theyāre dogwhistling about the rate of profit and how it must always go up at the expense of the working class. Picture of landscape? I donāt see any people in that picture; must be an incitement to genocide. A painting? You know who else liked painting?
āYou have a moral duty to bully atheist nerds for their nihilistic immorality!ā (the explicit premise of this post) is an attitude thatās always been considerably more popular in mainstream American liberal society that whatever inverse you seem to imagine is happening. Add āsocialistā to your list of things that are āpoisoning our countryā and youāve got the makings of a generic bipartisan congressional campaign. It would take a pretty remarkable feat of mental gymnastics to attribute the US attacks on reproductive freedom and LGBTQ people to politically organized Kierkegaard fans, or suggest that the proletarian revolutions that liberated millions in the Soviet Union or the Peopleās Republic of China were driven by people embracing faith in the divine and rejecting godless materialism.
The Nazis and Italian Fascists and Japanese Imperialists were not religious zealots. They all espoused scientism and secular theories of racial/cultural conflict. It is not Joe Brandonās catholicism that is driving his Zionist bloodlust and islamophobia, as heās much more extreme than the vast majority of catholics and catholic leadership on these matters. He is a zionist because of the secular Israeli projectās influence in the political system and his hollow sell-out nature making him a vessel to be filled with the first monied interest to cross his path. He is a secular fascist, despite being a catholic. Obama was a secular fascist. Trump was a secular fascist. Nixon was a secular fascist. Are you noticing a pattern? Itās nothing to do with their christianity, itās their āpro-westā secular views that fascism emerges from.
Obama identifies as a Protestant Christian and regularly attended church. If you were politically active at the time, you may recall a particular controversy about his longtime pastor. Trump identifies as a nondenominational Christian, and is currently selling Bibles. Joe Brandonās Catholicism is more bloodthirsty than say the pope or many European Catholics prefer, but itās right in line with mainstream US Catholic attitudes. Calling the Zionist project āsecularā is pretty wild claim Iām not sure you could get any credible āIsraeliā to get behind. The Zionist government (and a majority Jewish people in the US) isnāt exactly shy about itās position that Zionism is Judaism and vice versa. A German census in 1939 has 95% identifying as Protestant or Catholic, and 3.5% identifying as nondenominational Christians. The Nazi regimeās incorporation of Christianity into its political rhetoric and association of atheism with Bolshevism is extremely well documented. āGott mit unsā wasnāt a Nazi PSA about wearing gloves in winter while fighting the godless communists. Mussolini made Roman Catholicism the state religion of Fascist Italy. Iām not particularly well read on Imperial Japan, but they did codify Shinto as the state religion. You seem to equate the big three Axis powers as a single homogeneous āfascismā (a reductive premise Iād disagree with) while claiming it arises from āpro-West secular viewsā, but apart from none of those being secular states, Japan wasnāt considered āWesternā by any measure until after colonization by the US.
Iām going to bow out of this conversation now, because itās hard to imagine this discussion taking a turn for the respectful or productive when most of your premises are verifiably inaccurate as a matter of historical fact.
Iām actually extremely mad that nihilists are using the pale blue dot this way.
What I always took away from it is weāre all the same. The pale blue dot is us, not just humans, but the whole biosphere is all an interconnected āusā that unites Earth as the only world to harbor life in a huge and lonely universe. There is nowhere else.
Or as Sagan said: āTo me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home weāve ever known.ā That shit makes me tear up, still, 16 years out of highschool when I first heard it.
To flip this around as ālol no one and nothing mattersā is an abomination, a total perversion of the pale blue dot.
To flip this around as ālol no one and nothing mattersā is an abomination, a total perversion of the pale blue dot.
These people are not well.
I mean, sure. Art is open to interpretation and all, but I think ālol no one and nothing mattersā would be an odd takeaway from pale blue dot. Do you genuinely believe that thatās the message that a generic astronomy account is intentionally trying to communicate? If so, why? Iām not aware of any global political groups with power that are motivated by an adolescent misunderstanding of nihilism.
Thatās very clearly the message: you donāt matter on the scale of the Earth, everyone disappears when you zoom out far enough.
And thatās exactly the ethos of so-called effective altruism, longtermism, extropianism, etc. The idea is that you should zoom out and ignore all the individual people because they donāt matter on a large scale, instead we should focus on growing the economy for a technological-utopian future where the number of humans can grow exponentially by living in space and trying to colonize all parts of the universe.
This dominates Silicon Valley and has become a driving force in the tech industry.
Thatās very clearly the message: you donāt matter on the scale of the Earth, everyone disappears when you zoom out far enough.
Yes. I agree this is what itās communicating. This seems straightforward, empirically correct, and philosophically basic. Things look different when you look at them from a different perspective. Isnāt it interesting to look outside ourselves for a moment and consider things from a different point of view.
the ethos of so-called effective altruism, longtermism, extropianism, etc. ā¦we should focus on growing the economy for a technological-utopian future where the number of humans can grow exponentially by living in space and trying to colonize all parts of the universe
Iām sure you can find people in real-life who believe those things, and maybe even some who will admit to knowing what the fuck those specific terms mean. Iām sure some of those people even like looking at pictures of space. Iām sure some of those people look at pictures of space and think to themselves āall that will be mine some day! I shall rise above the puny mortals and claim my rightful place among the stars! galaxies will tremble at my unrivaled splendor!ā
I just donāt believe that the Venn diagram of people who like looking at space pics and people who are seriously committed to leading a post-human space empire is a circle. I know a lot of people who like looking at pictures of space and considering how small we are on a cosmic scale, and I can think of maybe a few people in real life that are making serious financial decisions about fucking the planet to colonize Mars. For that Venn diagram to be a circle, it would require most of the people Iāve ever interacted with during my life to all secretly hold the same specific and detailed political philosophy that theyāve deliberately kept hidden from me. When I find myself seriously considering things like that, I remind myself to go outside and touch grass. Or look at pictures of space.
Isnāt it interesting to look outside ourselves for a moment and consider things from a different point of view.
When I find myself seriously considering things like that, I remind myself to go outside and touch grass.
Why are you talking to me like that?
I just donāt believe that the Venn diagram of people who like looking at space pics and people who are seriously committed to leading a post-human space empire is a circle.
This isnāt just a space pic. This is, specifically, a nihilist space meme. I think the venn diagram in this case has a lot of overlap.
you donāt matter on the scale of the Earth, everyone disappears when you zoom out far enough.
Yes. I agree this is what itās communicating. This seems straightforward, empirically correct, and philosophically basic.
I reject that!
Everyone matters. When you zoom out, weāre all the same. Weāre all connected. An injury to one is an injury to all.
What this meme does and what you are doing is flipping that around to then say āWhen you zoom out, weāre all irrelevant. Weāre all nothing. No one matters at scale.ā I refuse! Every single person matters to all of us, because weāre all the same. When you zoom out you canāt tell us apart, all you can see is a pale blue dot. Thatās us. That doesnāt mean that no one matters at scale, that means everyone matters as much as everyone else. No one is more important or more valuable or more human, we are all the same, we all matter equally. We are our home.
I refuse to accept that no one matters, no matter what scale we are talking about. Every single person matters as part of that pale blue dot.
I apologize. I was going for levity, not insult. Itās easy, in niche internet subcultures like this, to fall into the idea that everyone outside the subculture all uniformly believes the same specific thing. Iām not immune. Many internet subcultures devote a lot of energy into collectively creating a hypothetical amalgamation of everything they personally dislike, then posting about how everyone else is just like the bad thing chimera. Itās the most reliable way to drive engagement. Look how popular /r/ShitDumpPeopleSay style communities are in every online medium. I find that most normal people tend to have diverse, inconsistent, and largely unexamined beliefs about most things.
No one is more important or more valuable or more human, we are all the same, we all matter equally. We are our home.
I agree in spirit with all of this. āWe all matter equallyā doesnāt mean āno one mattersā. I donāt believe not individually āmatteringā on a planetary scale means that humans donāt āmatterā at all: I see it as a rejection of anthropocentrim. Iām not the most important thing in the world. It came before me. It will be here after Iām gone. It wasnāt created to service my personal desires. Itās the only home of uncountable living creatures, older and more numerous than me, and they all have value too. I am not so much more important than every other living thing on this planet that destroying our shared home is acceptable just because I got what I needed out of it. Other things live here too, and because I donāt have any more inherent value than any of them, I have a responsibility to be a good neighbor and steward of the only home any of us have.
Iām pretty far removed from taking Philosophy 101 so forgive my ignorance, but I wanted to speak on nihilism. I also havenāt read a ton of any specific nihilist philosopherās work, so Iām going off the broad strokes as I understand them. Most people use ānihilismā in the way that most people use āanarchyā: as an epithet that broadly means chaotic, disordered, or without purpose. Nihilism, like Anarchy, means a lot of specific and conflicting things depending on which particular author youāre reading. My reductive understanding of the broad umbrella of nihilist philosophy boils down to two points. Point 1: Life has no intrinsic meaning. Thatās about as far as most people get. They hear that and go, āSee, that sounds bad! [insert supernatural thing here] gives life meaning and tells us the one correct way all must live!ā The ignored second part as I understand it is Point 2: Because life has no intrinsic meaning, we must create our own meaning. Some people hear that second part too and decide that, on the whole, itās not for them. They prefer to believe that something outside themselves gives their life meaning and defines how they should live. Fine by me! Iām not the philosophy police! Iāve just genuinely never heard of a self-described nihilist (outside of literal children) who claimed their own understanding of nihilism to be the first point, but not the second. The only adults I have ever seen use ānihilismā that way are using it as an epithet to explain what people they donāt like must believe in order to be so evil.
Itās the same way most people use Anarchist. āThat person doesnāt care about anything, and they just want the world to burn because theyāre an anarchist!ā Iām a Marxist-Leninist, so have some significant disagreements with Anarchist political philosophy as I understand it. That said, I donāt believe any self-described anarchists would characterize their belief system as ābasically just, like, the Joker, manā, even if thatās what most people probably think. When someone says āthe problem with society is thereās all these anarchists that donāt care about anything and just wanna fuck shit upā, I donāt think thatās a very accurate way to explain the world, both because there arenāt that many Anarchists shaping world politics, and the ones that exist wouldnāt describe their own beliefs as āfuck everything! nothing matters!ā
Coming back to nihilism, I think plenty of people can find the idea that life has no intrinsic meaning beyond what we make for ourselves to be freeing. They can know being their authentic self and doing what makes them happy is just as valid as anything else, and that theyāre not āfailingā at life by not conforming to the mold that their family, or god, or society sets for them. A woman isnāt āfailingā at her āintrinsic purposeā as a wife and mother if she doesnāt want to do any of that shit, for example. Any way she chooses to live is an equally valid way of being a woman. I can see why that might not resonate with some people, or that some might be frightened rather than hopeful at the idea of defining your own purpose, and I think thatās fine. A philosophy is only useful if it helps you navigate your own life. People have different perspectives, and I generally think we should try to understand one anotherās differences rather than imposing our own on others.
joke: please do not yell at me
ā¦except when it comes to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism, the one true path to proletarian liberation! All revisionists get the wall!
It sure has been a long time since Philosophy 101 huh? Iām pretty sure you are confusing existentialism with existential nihilism.
Existentialism is the belief that we construct the meaning of our lives through our own awareness, will, and reason. Nihilism, on the other hand, is the assertion that there is no meaning to life including whatever meaning we try to make for ourselves and that it is pointless to try to give life meaning. The man climbs the tree because he wants to, thereās no deeper meaning behind it because meaning doesnāt exist. Heās not making a new meaning for himself, heās just doing what he wants because thereās no reason not to and nothing is stopping him.
Iām sympathetic to the nihilist view, but rather than reject giving life meaning as pointless I just recognize that it is absurd and then do it anyway.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy, yeah?
And now we return to that pale blue dot. Thatās home. Thatās us. I choose to give that meaning and acknowledge that I am choosing to do so, despite the meaningless universe in which we find ourselves. I am part of something bigger than myself, and so are you, and together we give the world meaning. Nihilism rejects meaning, and I donāt think youāre actually a nihilist.
Iāll confess, youāre probably right that Iām conflating some stuff from nihilism, existentialism, and absurdism. Itās been a while, and my understanding is that they were always very overlapping and informed by one another. Iāve just never met or even heard of a real person explaining their own beliefs in literal āWe believe in nothing, Lebowski!ā terms outside of memes or epithets, so itās difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that it must be what someone intends from one instance with plausible ambiguity. Accepting the premise that someone does strictly believe ānothing means anything; full stopā, I donāt see how that would be an action motivating belief. If ānothing means anythingā is the full scope of how you relate to the world, then whereās the benefit in persuading anyone else? If nihilism definitionally prohibits a āthereforeā after the proposition that ānothing mattersā, then I donāt see how itās not self-excluding. Nobody can exist in the world in a perfect state of inaction, and if ānothing matters so make your own meaningā leaves the definitionally pure confines of nihilism, then I donāt see how āonly I matterā or āonly I and [subgroup]ā matter isnāt just as much a departure from that definition.
Iāve never called myself a nihilist because to me the ānothing mattersā or ānothing has intrinsic meaningā part of the equation always seemed like an immaterial meta-issue. If you canāt objectively test for whether or not something matters, or quantify the degree to which one thing matters over another, then ānothing mattersā and āeverything matters an infinite amountā are functionally indistinguishable to me. Itās what you materially do with the motivation that Iām interested in. I donāt think ābully more people on the internetā is a particularly worthwhile thing to do or encourage generally, no matter the thought process behind it. To the extent that oneās āpolitical actionā is limited to online bullying, I feel like āpeople that talk about scienceā, āpeople that talk about philosophyā, and āpeople that donāt believe a godā are pretty poor proxy groups for the people in real life that actually have the political power to make the world worse, unless youāre identifying āintellectualsā rather than ācapitalistsā as the final boss of class struggle. It just feels like, if you want to make a reasonably safe materially insignificant net positive contribution to the class struggle without working too hard or thinking too much, youād be better off shoplifting a pack of gum from a business, or throwing a rock at the most expensive house in your neighborhood or something.
Maybe Iām missing context by not being invested in Elon Muskās personal blog, but this seems like an overreaction to a pale blue dot meme. The word choice is a bit inelegant, but it seems to be a generic astronomy account, so Iām assuming it wasnāt chosen with secret intent to encourage mass suicide for some inexplicable reason. Itās a considerable stretch to get from āyou donāt personally have planetary significanceā to āyou are unimportant to those around youā. I donāt expect everyone on Hexbear to necessarily be a committed Marxist, but emphasizing the importance of the collective over the individual is a pretty central aspect any vaguely āleftā political ideology. Acting as though youāre earthās main character and bullying anyone that acts otherwise is already the default behavior weāre raised with by liberal society.
The context is that the people who tend to espouse this line of reasoning tend to be new atheist types who do have extremely emotional and moralizing arguments they make all the time in other spheres of life. Theyāre hypocrites who selectively employ this type of philosophical nihilism (nihilism isnāt āyou should commit suicide btw, itās ānothing matters or has inherent meaningā) when it suits them and ignore it when it doesnāt.
This type of person is very well known and hated on hexbear, the new atheist āsecularā chauvinist who also happens to hate Islam and always talks in a clash of civilizations idealist manner. For some reason nothing matters we are just apes on a rock man, but also those brown apes over there have an evil culture. Sam Harris, Hitchens, Musk, Dawkins, Maher, you know the type.
again, Iāll just point out that youāve inferred an entire personal archetype and detailed political philosophy to get mad at based on an astronomy account tweeting picture of a planet with a caption that can be reduced to āconsider perspectiveā. itās fair to be upset when Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, or other pop-sci entertainers espouse white supremacy while hiding behind a scientific aesthetic. I donāt think itās reasonable to extrapolate from an astronomy tweet that scientist = atheist = nihilist = hypocrite = white chauvinist = fascist. The white supremacy of those individual entertainers is reflective of and inherited from the hegemony of the liberal societies they were raised in. Theyāre not political or cultural thought leaders dragging the Anglophone world into colonizing West Asia out of a personal commitment to science, philosophy, or atheism.
I promise, most of the people by volume who are committed to ethnically cleansing the global south also want to throw scientists, philosophers, and atheists on the pyre, and they have a lot to say about the dangers of society āabandoning moralityā and āembracing nihilismā.
Itās already starting half-way down that line of inference, at nihilist and hypocrite. Considering itās a western white nihilist account itās not that large of a leap to white chauvinist (thatās the majority of the West).
I think youāre in a bit of denial about how evil and widespread these atheist neocon Liberals are and that they want to ethnically cleanse the global south even more than the local chuds. Most Zionists in the west are not evangelical crazies, theyāre ālogical secular Liberal centristsā. Fascism arises from the warmonger capitalists, not the fringe lunatics. You donāt understand the core of imperialism or fascism if you donāt think these types are extremely dangerous and our primary enemy.
If you assume this is true about an account that (as far as I can tell) exists to post generic space pictures, you could could just as easily make this argument about any tweet. Itās on an American website, so itās probably a white American poster and Americaās fascist, so the poster must be fascist, so the post is self-reinforcing evidence of the posterās white cryptofascism. Somebody posted about math? Bet theyāre dogwhistling about the rate of profit and how it must always go up at the expense of the working class. Picture of landscape? I donāt see any people in that picture; must be an incitement to genocide. A painting? You know who else liked painting?
I think youāre misattributing your feelings about a particular subreddit to the demographics of the United States. Reddit (and X dot com) as a whole arenāt reflective of US demographics. Every US president in history has been a Christian. Fewer Americans would vote for a āwell-qualifiedā atheist nominated by their own party for president than would vote for a Muslim across Democrats, Republicans, and independents. 70% of the US identifies as Christian, and the 20% that could be broadly be considered atheist plummets to around 3% if weāre going by strict self-identification; thatās the highest itās ever been, and its disproportionately younger generations with less political power. On US support for the Zionist genocide on Gaza, Muslims and black Protestants are the only groups with lower support for Israel than the religiously unaffiliated. US Protestants (evangelical and mainline, and excluding black people), Catholics, and Jewish people are by far the most likely to justify Zionist violence and condemn Hamas self defense.
āYou have a moral duty to bully atheist nerds for their nihilistic immorality!ā (the explicit premise of this post) is an attitude thatās always been considerably more popular in mainstream American liberal society that whatever inverse you seem to imagine is happening. Add āsocialistā to your list of things that are āpoisoning our countryā and youāve got the makings of a generic bipartisan congressional campaign. It would take a pretty remarkable feat of mental gymnastics to attribute the US attacks on reproductive freedom and LGBTQ people to politically organized Kierkegaard fans, or suggest that the proletarian revolutions that liberated millions in the Soviet Union or the Peopleās Republic of China were driven by people embracing faith in the divine and rejecting godless materialism.
The Nazis and Italian Fascists and Japanese Imperialists were not religious zealots. They all espoused scientism and secular theories of racial/cultural conflict. It is not Joe Brandonās catholicism that is driving his Zionist bloodlust and islamophobia, as heās much more extreme than the vast majority of catholics and catholic leadership on these matters. He is a zionist because of the secular Israeli projectās influence in the political system and his hollow sell-out nature making him a vessel to be filled with the first monied interest to cross his path. He is a secular fascist, despite being a catholic. Obama was a secular fascist. Trump was a secular fascist. Nixon was a secular fascist. Are you noticing a pattern? Itās nothing to do with their christianity, itās their āpro-westā secular views that fascism emerges from.
Obama identifies as a Protestant Christian and regularly attended church. If you were politically active at the time, you may recall a particular controversy about his longtime pastor. Trump identifies as a nondenominational Christian, and is currently selling Bibles. Joe Brandonās Catholicism is more bloodthirsty than say the pope or many European Catholics prefer, but itās right in line with mainstream US Catholic attitudes. Calling the Zionist project āsecularā is pretty wild claim Iām not sure you could get any credible āIsraeliā to get behind. The Zionist government (and a majority Jewish people in the US) isnāt exactly shy about itās position that Zionism is Judaism and vice versa. A German census in 1939 has 95% identifying as Protestant or Catholic, and 3.5% identifying as nondenominational Christians. The Nazi regimeās incorporation of Christianity into its political rhetoric and association of atheism with Bolshevism is extremely well documented. āGott mit unsā wasnāt a Nazi PSA about wearing gloves in winter while fighting the godless communists. Mussolini made Roman Catholicism the state religion of Fascist Italy. Iām not particularly well read on Imperial Japan, but they did codify Shinto as the state religion. You seem to equate the big three Axis powers as a single homogeneous āfascismā (a reductive premise Iād disagree with) while claiming it arises from āpro-West secular viewsā, but apart from none of those being secular states, Japan wasnāt considered āWesternā by any measure until after colonization by the US.
Iām going to bow out of this conversation now, because itās hard to imagine this discussion taking a turn for the respectful or productive when most of your premises are verifiably inaccurate as a matter of historical fact.
Iām actually extremely mad that nihilists are using the pale blue dot this way.
What I always took away from it is weāre all the same. The pale blue dot is us, not just humans, but the whole biosphere is all an interconnected āusā that unites Earth as the only world to harbor life in a huge and lonely universe. There is nowhere else.
Or as Sagan said: āTo me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home weāve ever known.ā That shit makes me tear up, still, 16 years out of highschool when I first heard it.
To flip this around as ālol no one and nothing mattersā is an abomination, a total perversion of the pale blue dot.
These people are not well.
I mean, sure. Art is open to interpretation and all, but I think ālol no one and nothing mattersā would be an odd takeaway from pale blue dot. Do you genuinely believe that thatās the message that a generic astronomy account is intentionally trying to communicate? If so, why? Iām not aware of any global political groups with power that are motivated by an adolescent misunderstanding of nihilism.
Thatās very clearly the message: you donāt matter on the scale of the Earth, everyone disappears when you zoom out far enough.
And thatās exactly the ethos of so-called effective altruism, longtermism, extropianism, etc. The idea is that you should zoom out and ignore all the individual people because they donāt matter on a large scale, instead we should focus on growing the economy for a technological-utopian future where the number of humans can grow exponentially by living in space and trying to colonize all parts of the universe.
This dominates Silicon Valley and has become a driving force in the tech industry.
Yes. I agree this is what itās communicating. This seems straightforward, empirically correct, and philosophically basic. Things look different when you look at them from a different perspective. Isnāt it interesting to look outside ourselves for a moment and consider things from a different point of view.
Iām sure you can find people in real-life who believe those things, and maybe even some who will admit to knowing what the fuck those specific terms mean. Iām sure some of those people even like looking at pictures of space. Iām sure some of those people look at pictures of space and think to themselves āall that will be mine some day! I shall rise above the puny mortals and claim my rightful place among the stars! galaxies will tremble at my unrivaled splendor!ā
I just donāt believe that the Venn diagram of people who like looking at space pics and people who are seriously committed to leading a post-human space empire is a circle. I know a lot of people who like looking at pictures of space and considering how small we are on a cosmic scale, and I can think of maybe a few people in real life that are making serious financial decisions about fucking the planet to colonize Mars. For that Venn diagram to be a circle, it would require most of the people Iāve ever interacted with during my life to all secretly hold the same specific and detailed political philosophy that theyāve deliberately kept hidden from me. When I find myself seriously considering things like that, I remind myself to go outside and touch grass. Or look at pictures of space.
Why are you talking to me like that?
This isnāt just a space pic. This is, specifically, a nihilist space meme. I think the venn diagram in this case has a lot of overlap.
I reject that!
Everyone matters. When you zoom out, weāre all the same. Weāre all connected. An injury to one is an injury to all.
What this meme does and what you are doing is flipping that around to then say āWhen you zoom out, weāre all irrelevant. Weāre all nothing. No one matters at scale.ā I refuse! Every single person matters to all of us, because weāre all the same. When you zoom out you canāt tell us apart, all you can see is a pale blue dot. Thatās us. That doesnāt mean that no one matters at scale, that means everyone matters as much as everyone else. No one is more important or more valuable or more human, we are all the same, we all matter equally. We are our home.
I refuse to accept that no one matters, no matter what scale we are talking about. Every single person matters as part of that pale blue dot.
I apologize. I was going for levity, not insult. Itās easy, in niche internet subcultures like this, to fall into the idea that everyone outside the subculture all uniformly believes the same specific thing. Iām not immune. Many internet subcultures devote a lot of energy into collectively creating a hypothetical amalgamation of everything they personally dislike, then posting about how everyone else is just like the bad thing chimera. Itās the most reliable way to drive engagement. Look how popular /r/ShitDumpPeopleSay style communities are in every online medium. I find that most normal people tend to have diverse, inconsistent, and largely unexamined beliefs about most things.
I agree in spirit with all of this. āWe all matter equallyā doesnāt mean āno one mattersā. I donāt believe not individually āmatteringā on a planetary scale means that humans donāt āmatterā at all: I see it as a rejection of anthropocentrim. Iām not the most important thing in the world. It came before me. It will be here after Iām gone. It wasnāt created to service my personal desires. Itās the only home of uncountable living creatures, older and more numerous than me, and they all have value too. I am not so much more important than every other living thing on this planet that destroying our shared home is acceptable just because I got what I needed out of it. Other things live here too, and because I donāt have any more inherent value than any of them, I have a responsibility to be a good neighbor and steward of the only home any of us have.
Iām pretty far removed from taking Philosophy 101 so forgive my ignorance, but I wanted to speak on nihilism. I also havenāt read a ton of any specific nihilist philosopherās work, so Iām going off the broad strokes as I understand them. Most people use ānihilismā in the way that most people use āanarchyā: as an epithet that broadly means chaotic, disordered, or without purpose. Nihilism, like Anarchy, means a lot of specific and conflicting things depending on which particular author youāre reading. My reductive understanding of the broad umbrella of nihilist philosophy boils down to two points. Point 1: Life has no intrinsic meaning. Thatās about as far as most people get. They hear that and go, āSee, that sounds bad! [insert supernatural thing here] gives life meaning and tells us the one correct way all must live!ā The ignored second part as I understand it is Point 2: Because life has no intrinsic meaning, we must create our own meaning. Some people hear that second part too and decide that, on the whole, itās not for them. They prefer to believe that something outside themselves gives their life meaning and defines how they should live. Fine by me! Iām not the philosophy police! Iāve just genuinely never heard of a self-described nihilist (outside of literal children) who claimed their own understanding of nihilism to be the first point, but not the second. The only adults I have ever seen use ānihilismā that way are using it as an epithet to explain what people they donāt like must believe in order to be so evil.
Itās the same way most people use Anarchist. āThat person doesnāt care about anything, and they just want the world to burn because theyāre an anarchist!ā Iām a Marxist-Leninist, so have some significant disagreements with Anarchist political philosophy as I understand it. That said, I donāt believe any self-described anarchists would characterize their belief system as ābasically just, like, the Joker, manā, even if thatās what most people probably think. When someone says āthe problem with society is thereās all these anarchists that donāt care about anything and just wanna fuck shit upā, I donāt think thatās a very accurate way to explain the world, both because there arenāt that many Anarchists shaping world politics, and the ones that exist wouldnāt describe their own beliefs as āfuck everything! nothing matters!ā
Coming back to nihilism, I think plenty of people can find the idea that life has no intrinsic meaning beyond what we make for ourselves to be freeing. They can know being their authentic self and doing what makes them happy is just as valid as anything else, and that theyāre not āfailingā at life by not conforming to the mold that their family, or god, or society sets for them. A woman isnāt āfailingā at her āintrinsic purposeā as a wife and mother if she doesnāt want to do any of that shit, for example. Any way she chooses to live is an equally valid way of being a woman. I can see why that might not resonate with some people, or that some might be frightened rather than hopeful at the idea of defining your own purpose, and I think thatās fine. A philosophy is only useful if it helps you navigate your own life. People have different perspectives, and I generally think we should try to understand one anotherās differences rather than imposing our own on others.
joke: please do not yell at me
ā¦except when it comes to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism, the one true path to proletarian liberation! All revisionists get the wall!
tl;dr Nihilism: itās about perspective
It sure has been a long time since Philosophy 101 huh? Iām pretty sure you are confusing existentialism with existential nihilism.
Existentialism is the belief that we construct the meaning of our lives through our own awareness, will, and reason. Nihilism, on the other hand, is the assertion that there is no meaning to life including whatever meaning we try to make for ourselves and that it is pointless to try to give life meaning. The man climbs the tree because he wants to, thereās no deeper meaning behind it because meaning doesnāt exist. Heās not making a new meaning for himself, heās just doing what he wants because thereās no reason not to and nothing is stopping him.
Iām sympathetic to the nihilist view, but rather than reject giving life meaning as pointless I just recognize that it is absurd and then do it anyway.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy, yeah?
And now we return to that pale blue dot. Thatās home. Thatās us. I choose to give that meaning and acknowledge that I am choosing to do so, despite the meaningless universe in which we find ourselves. I am part of something bigger than myself, and so are you, and together we give the world meaning. Nihilism rejects meaning, and I donāt think youāre actually a nihilist.
Iāll confess, youāre probably right that Iām conflating some stuff from nihilism, existentialism, and absurdism. Itās been a while, and my understanding is that they were always very overlapping and informed by one another. Iāve just never met or even heard of a real person explaining their own beliefs in literal āWe believe in nothing, Lebowski!ā terms outside of memes or epithets, so itās difficult for me to jump to the conclusion that it must be what someone intends from one instance with plausible ambiguity. Accepting the premise that someone does strictly believe ānothing means anything; full stopā, I donāt see how that would be an action motivating belief. If ānothing means anythingā is the full scope of how you relate to the world, then whereās the benefit in persuading anyone else? If nihilism definitionally prohibits a āthereforeā after the proposition that ānothing mattersā, then I donāt see how itās not self-excluding. Nobody can exist in the world in a perfect state of inaction, and if ānothing matters so make your own meaningā leaves the definitionally pure confines of nihilism, then I donāt see how āonly I matterā or āonly I and [subgroup]ā matter isnāt just as much a departure from that definition.
Iāve never called myself a nihilist because to me the ānothing mattersā or ānothing has intrinsic meaningā part of the equation always seemed like an immaterial meta-issue. If you canāt objectively test for whether or not something matters, or quantify the degree to which one thing matters over another, then ānothing mattersā and āeverything matters an infinite amountā are functionally indistinguishable to me. Itās what you materially do with the motivation that Iām interested in. I donāt think ābully more people on the internetā is a particularly worthwhile thing to do or encourage generally, no matter the thought process behind it. To the extent that oneās āpolitical actionā is limited to online bullying, I feel like āpeople that talk about scienceā, āpeople that talk about philosophyā, and āpeople that donāt believe a godā are pretty poor proxy groups for the people in real life that actually have the political power to make the world worse, unless youāre identifying āintellectualsā rather than ācapitalistsā as the final boss of class struggle. It just feels like, if you want to make a reasonably safe materially insignificant net positive contribution to the class struggle without working too hard or thinking too much, youād be better off shoplifting a pack of gum from a business, or throwing a rock at the most expensive house in your neighborhood or something.