I have been on reddit for just about 12 years now. Something I’ve noticed over time is just how hateful the place has become. A complete outrage machine. Every single sub became filled with it. I’ve filtered so many subreddits over the last few years, it’s insane. I don’t know enough about this place to be sure, but I do hope it doesn’t become the same type of echo chamber of anger.
About 10 years here. That’s why I had Apollo. I filtered out all that shit. Everything you could imagine. Hundreds of things hidden.
Eventually I had a home feed of crafts, patientgamers, every cat sub you can imagine, bread, and a bunch of other peaceful things.
Before that I was just so angry all the time and arguing with redditors. I won’t go back to all that.
Don’t know how one could possibly use the site without filters from apps like that or RES. it’s so chaotic.
Exactly why I refuse to participate anymore among a dozen reasons.
My partner liked specific communities there but kept getting recommended upsetting stuff (got sucked into AmITheAsshole in a bad way, etc) so I uninstalled the official app and installed Apollo instead and their mental health greatly improved. But healthy satisfied people aren’t profitable for corporations.
I have mostly good things to say about Reddit and the more I read about it, the more I realize that that’s just because I always connected to it through Boost for Reddit.
I haven’t used either but I think boost has a lemmy app. I’m pretty sure it’s made the same dev(s) but I’m not fully sure
This is the way. Though despite all that I started to keep my Reddit browsing a secret as the average person considers a “redditor” a pretty negative thing to be.
Tbh kinda glad in that sense that the API fiasco revealed the true colors of the company and gave me a very clear reason to leave. It hadn’t felt “good” in a long time and now I know why.
the average person considers a “redditor” a pretty negative thing to be.
Redditors consider a redditor a negative thing to be. It works because no redditor believes they are one. It’s everyone else who’s a part of the gross hivemind, not me. Reddit thinks this and reddit does that, but not me. I’m different and special. Not one of them.
r/notliketheotherredditors
It’s also the case that several things can be true at once. Like, maybe you are part of the reddit mob-mentality, but on certain issues you have opinions that very much go against the grain.
I read the post the same way. In the few times Reddit has come up IRL I just ask, “Have you heard of Reddit?” Then it’s either yes or no then we move on.
No one in the real world gives a shit about being a “redditor.” Which to your point, means nothing.
Though despite all that I started to keep my Reddit browsing a secret as the average person considers a “redditor” a pretty negative thing to be.
Damn, it didn’t always used to be like this. In the early 2010s, Reddit used to be a great conversation starter.
As a European, the increasing cynicism and apathy to American politics of many users has made me really bad mood, maybe I should have cured my feed better, but now it doesn’t matter anymore as lemmy is my new home.
Am I the only one who never looked at a general feed on Apollo? I would open the app which was set to open to a particular sub and then I would navigate back to the list of favorite subs and pick which one to check in on. I would prefer an app that shows me that list of favorite communities at launch but haven’t found it yet.
Definitely not. I would peruse Home for just a little bit, but mostly I’d swipe over and go to specific subs. The past 3 months I only logged in to upload chapters of a story. Reddit had become pretty stale for me.
It was so helpful to block users, especially in my local cities subreddit.
City subs were always some of the most contentious, full of trolls and hostility. My theory is it’s because rather than bringing people together purely from common interests, they gathered people purely based on geographic location.
I went to a sun for a local municipality recently. Someone made a post about something sort of silly. Responses were good natured like “uh… that’s silly” so OP was there “waiting for the next STUPID comment”. Yeah, great. I don’t really need to participate in that.
I feel like most of the comments were from people who were doing Internet as a lifestyle.i mean, I wouldn’t know a better way to get depressed and bitter…
Same. Years ago when I first got on Reddit I was very politically active and my subs were a ton of political, economic, societal etc subs. But I just got sick of opening up Infinity and seeing nothing but doom and gloom as far as I could scroll. I transitioned away from that over time and at the end my subs were mostly cats, some specific TV show and game (meme) subs, and some niche hobby subs.
Yep. I was more loyal to Apollo than to Reddit. I paid for Apollo premium but would not do that for Reddit. Also I hated the UX on Reddit’s website old or new. Now my issue with Lemmy and Kbin is to wait for an app that matches Apollo.
Unfortunately that hasn’t been unique to Reddit. Outrage, hate, and conspiracies generate clicks and engagement on platforms. Recent events within the last decade gave rise to a lot of coordinated hate campaigns. User created subreddits were a double edge sword for this in both being able to filter out these groups but also giving them their own echo chambers to congregate and embolden one another. The transition from liberal freedom of speech to absolutionist right to hatred made social media companies millions simultaneously in accepting money to promote controversial topics and harvesting the resulting outrage on their platforms. Reddit and their staff effectively became one of many internet war profiteers giving all sides bases of operations.
To end on a semi-positive note, with the rise of federated services, instances may still give these extremists places to seethe but they can at least be ‘sanctioned’ or defederated from the rest of the larger fediverse very easily.
This was also part of the strategy of foreign influence in western politics. Britain, France, and The United States got hit by this, hard. Driving anxiety pushes people to the political extremes and prevents actual political process from happening. And don’t get me wrong, there’s a degree to which outrage is warranted. The economy has yet to fully recover from 2007 and looks to be taking another dip now, police violence, a broken binary political system in America, you name it. There are all sorts of stuff to be frustrated with. But Russia and China feed that. Reinforce it. Encourage us all to hate each other
You used to be able to tell who the bots were, but now we have political movements espousing the same thing the bots are because they are both feeding off the same source.
What really broke hope for me is the pandemic. At the beginning of the pandemic, before the vaccines or effective treatment, n95 masks were the best protection. This should not be a controversial statement, just one of fact. A former Republican candidate for Governor of Connecticut, helped to get free masks distributed to every community in the state. His economic policies were way too conservative for me to consider him as a candidate, but he stepped up to help when it counted, so points to him. Unfortunately, after the worst of the pandemic, he ran again and while he never officially endorsed the anti-maskers, but he didn’t denounce them either, and went to rallies cosponsored by them. He knew what the right thing to do in 2020 was, but when he ran in 2022, the outrage machine was in full effect with countless “unmask our kids” groups and instead of doing what he knew was right, he did what was easy and convenient. He still lost, because the Democratic governor of the state who had led the state through the pandemic had done a good job. Propaganda turned something that was common sense into a political statement.
A simple and easy thing that would help prevent needless deaths became a political football kicked around by the right. Much of the anti-vaccine rhetoric (some now being spewed by a “Democratic” candidate 🤦♂) originated in Russia and was meant to keep the population there from seeking western vaccines when the Russian vaccine was shown to be inferior. But because everything gets pushed into political framing, public health and science became team red vs team blue instead of humans united against a virus that kills. When we get a really nasty virus (COVID isn’t that deadly compared to an avian flue), the world is screwed because so much anti-science has been pushed in order to generate engagement in media and social media.
It was around the 2016 election that things started to change. Before that, there was still a mentality of open and genuine discourse in most subs. But after the election that started to die, people started realizing bots and alt-righters had no interest in open discourse, on the contrary they would see to abuse such channels as a platform for their hate, and would use such hate and anger in an attempt to shape and suppress discussions. This forced the community to become far more jaded and less open, realizing just how vulnerable the community was to radicalization and firehouse misinformation.
On the early internet, we all had this vision that free access to information would free everyone, that unlimited information could only do good. Most of those people now understand how nieve we were, unlimited information means unlimited disinformation, and that organizations would always see to weaponize information the way they weaponize everything else. We are in a different internet age, now.
As a non US person I was reading your post and thinking how right you are and how international politics also got into the same problem of increased anger. And than got to:
But Russia and China feed that. Reinforce it. Encourage us all to hate each other
As proof it is really working even on aware people. It is a big problem seeing thing just from one perspective, that “feeding” even if intentional actually started from west. Just look at the movies, Russians and Chinese are always bad guys, for decades. What do you think they will think about west if they grow up looking how west is seeing them? How will they react?
How will someone in Afghanistan support west when someone from west destroyed their country and killed family and friends, maybe with good reason and couldn’t be done differently, but I am talking about individuals here.
I don’t think there is ultimate truth, but we can try and see events from a bit wider perspective.
That and an effort to apply that wider perspective to the party you perceive to be the good/bad guys would do wonders
Unfortunately that hasn’t been unique to Reddit. Outrage, hate, and conspiracies generate clicks and engagement on platforms.
Yesterday I stumbled upon this post. Really sad.
Their mention of signal:noise struck a chord for me.
Ever since this gelled for me a few years ago, I have been on a miserable (and obviously impossible) mission to find places to see and discuss useful, HUMAN information with other useful HUMAN people on the internet.
Blocking whole forums on topics I really enjoy is mechanically easier than curating the contributors to those conversations on an individual basis. It hurts my heart to do it, but it is impossible to keep the noise out without wholly ignoring signal that I enjoy.
Even people I used to really enjoy talking to have had to be ignored. They stopped caring about nuance, and got intellectually lazier. They switched from reading to skimming, and the well thought out comments got shorter, and more hostile.
This is undoubtedly the snake eating it’s own tail.
They filter their inputs so heavily, and have done battle with bad faith for so long that their outputs resemble the very thing they were trying to avoid.
Unsure what my point is other than commiseration with OP. It’s utterly disheartening to realize that the technology that was created to connect us all has been co-opted and subverted - transforming it into a hideous monster of hate, and misery that forces us all to internally disconnect from entire parts of it.
That’s not to say that it couldn’t have been expected… but I have no fucking idea how it could’ve been prevented.
The longer you think about that scenario the more fucked up it gets. Google argues that it’s a problem of scale, which is outrageously BS when you consider Google of all companies let their own account system be easily botted, and don’t use any of the ludicrous number analytical tools purpose built for detecting spam trends (3rd parties use them all the time to spot political spam).
I’ve never been a Twitter user, but this makes me wish I could follow Mastodon users from here
You can. This is the admin of the server where I am.
EDIT: I forgot that you’re on a Lemmy instance. My bad.
Also, I want to add something: Beware of people fetishizing the fediverse as a cure-all to all or most of Big Tech and social media’s problems. Remember, the technology is rarely ever the problem, the humans are. So long as humans remain really clever apes, you are not going to solve hate speech, spam, or outrage.
In fact, it seems like outrage about Reddit is currently driving the majority of engagement on Lemmy so far, even though it’s been three weeks since the API protests. Just look at all of the most upvoted posts here. Discussions about how bad Reddit is currently and how Lemmy/fediverse will save everything and make everything good. On social media, moderation is still extremely important, and from the snark and trolling I’ve seen here and there, I hope the mod team doesn’t fall behind and I hope that the Lemmy developers create better mod tools, because if Lemmy does blow up, expect bots to show up. Expect propaganda. Expect automated trolling. All this shit hit Reddit as it got more popular.
I remember a while back when the first comment was always someone debunking the clickbait article headline with a good source and succinct summary. Redditors famously never read the article, but the comments were often better than the article.
Now, you have to scroll down half the page to find any original thought. You see dozens of people spouting nonsense or even defending nonsense because they…don’t want to be wrong?
One example: an image from the 50s displaying a child with their hand caught in a fire pull with a caption explaining that the device would trap the kid at the spot to deter pranksters.
The device was indeed designed to deter pranksters, and it would attach to the user’s wrist, but it would come free. So you would know the kid who did it because they have a thing stuck on their hand.
I recognized the device and had a video demonstrating its proper, safe function. People were still arguing with me.
Why would anyone want to put any creative/intellectual energy into a place like that?
A lot of those people are here too, trying to recreate that outrage machine
Hey fuck you asshole I will literally murder you and your whole family. /s
Freedom of /s.
of /s
/s
That problem is not site-specific. Any website that becomes a hub for real information will be targeted by disinformation trolls. It’s how the fascists keep the ignorants chanting “both sides!”
I wrote this a couple of days ago here on my own feelings that reddit just turned all of us into such awful people and how much I hated everything about it but still can’t stay away from being a redditor.
It’s really long, I think it’s one of the best and worst things I’ve ever written. Give it a read if you’d like, I would really appreciate it.
https://lemmy.world/post/858027
I think my point is that we are not redditors anymore, we don’t belong there, and there is no place for hate or self-hate here.
And after being here, I’m honestly pretty indifferent towards reddit now.
the concept of fediverse give a lot more ways to block hate, and there isn’t any algorithm to spread hate for engagement
This is key. I’m hoping that this platform can break the toxic social media cycle because it’s funded by the people who use it.
I remain concerned about bots. I don’t think there’s a silver bullet to that problem, and I understand that a lot of astroturfing involves making people angry. Eyeballs = money is only one factor that leads to this toxicity.
I can only hope that because the platform doesn’t have a financial interest beyond its users that it will truly grow to serve its users.
It would also benefit well with the fact that it’s open-source. I hope that one day I could also contribute to the project somehow. Hopefully OSS and decentralized social medias become the future. It’s time to stop letting billionaires make money by using our data.
Yes! Honestly, when people on the political right started throwing tantrums when Twitter blocked Trump, their “but muh town square”-rage felt like “finally they’re getting it!”, our marketplace of ideas should not be controlled by privately owned companies!
I think it’s really important to our democracies, that truly democratic means of communication be available online. Lemmy, Mastodon, the entire Fediverse is really one big toolkit to place the control over our data, our communication and thus, our political dialogue back in the hands of the users.
Sure, admins and instance hosters have a lot of power here, but way less than, for example with Big Tech.
Yeah, I agree 100%. I remember Reddit from 12 years ago, where discussions were lively, but it was mostly trolls who would get downvoted. Now it’s just an ‘I disagree’ button. Sharing and discussing different opinions can be fun, even if they are different as long they are not hatefull. We shouldn’t hate on diverse opinions, that’s how we can learn from each other, in my opinion.
Hopefully, Lemmy will remain somewhat smaller so that we can have more quality discussions and not turn into an outrage machine, with people acting like they are holier than the Pope.
Online discourse has gotten to the point that if you disagree, you’re hateful
Hate is a meaningless word now, like so many over used words in this climate
Yep, I saw a guy comment that “communism doesnt work” the other day on here and the first reply was someone calling them a “hateful bigot” and I was confused, since nothing in the first guy’s comment had anything hateful in it, just a statement about communism not working.
This very post conflates outrage with hate. Change can start from within methinks, even though I’m not usually an individualist.
The outrage usually is outrage over perceived hate
Words like fascism and nazi have lost their meaning and people basically use them as a stand in for I don’t like what you are saying
I blame the 24 hour news cycle and end of the Fairness Doctrine. It has allowed editorializing and “spinning” of news stories as opposed to being factual and objective.
People give the fairness doctrine far too much credit, it only applied to your local over the air news channels. Not cable, and it wouldn’t have applied to the internet.
This is correct. The idea is that bandwidth is public property and as such holding a license to use part of it entails public obligations. This is why radio stations are required to repeat their identification a certain number of times per hour, for example.
Cable networks are privately owned and therefore were never subject to the same kinds of regulation.
I’m not sure that’s true. You have to remember that when the fairness doctrine was still in force everyone got all of their information from broadcast. Even when cable first came on scene and got popular in the late '70s and early '80s, it was simply to improve how well you got your broadcast stations, and maybe give you a chance to have a few additional channels. The idea of basic cable took years before it took off.
It’s very true. Cable networks are private property whereas broadcast bandwidth is public property. That’s the difference. It creates two very disparate regulatory environments.
Indeed, but during the time of the fairness doctrine cable was primarily used to watch broadcast networks, but without signal degradation. In other words, most of what people consumed on cable for the first 10-15 years of cable’s existence were broadcast network content. The doctrine could’ve been expanded to cover basic cable networks and 24/7 news instead of scrapped.
It’s very true. Cable networks are private property whereas broadcast bandwidth is public property. That’s the difference. It creates two very disparate regulatory environments.
It’s very true. Cable networks are private property whereas broadcast bandwidth is public property. That’s the difference. It creates two very disparate regulatory environments.
It’s very true. Cable networks are private property whereas broadcast bandwidth is public property. That’s the difference. It creates two very disparate regulatory environments.
The Fairness Doctrine only ever existed due to the way the broadcast airwaves were divvied up. It had no bearing on cable’s CNN, etc.
Not sure about the Fairness Doctrine’s role, but it saddens me that people don’t seem to be nearly as aware of the damaging effects of the news cycle anymore. People seem even less aware that getting your news online, or through social media, doesn’t protect you from it either.
If you’ll excuse the ramble: Years ago when the Tea Party (arguably one of the first big far-right movements in the open) started gaining traction in the US, they held a rally in DC. People were apalled, but to my knowledge there weren’t issues where anti-Tea Party counter protesters were attacking Tea Party members with bike locks
or concrete mix in milkshake cups in an attempt to injure Tea Party members. (During the time of antifa and Trump supporter protests/rallies there was shit going around online about how to mix quick dry cement mix with fast food milkshakes to make a slurry that would cause severe chemical burns on people. Not sure if that was real or not.)EDIT: I’ve been informed the concrete milkshake thing wasn’t real.What did happen was that Comedy Central, who (we know now) had already been planning on holding a joke rally in DC to build hype for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert’s shows even befoe the Tea Party mess, started pushing online into the groups suggesting a separate counter rally.
The Rally to restore sanity (or to keep fear alive, as Colbert was advertising it satirically) started gaining a ton of traction online. At the least, it was an opportunity for fans of Stewart and Colbert’s shows to come out and have a laugh. At best it was a way to show that the Tea Party didn’t have power and was just a bunch of hot air.
I went to the Comedy Central rally. They made it a fum time with guests like Mythbusters, music, and speeches from Colbert (in character) and Stewart. What impacted me the most was the sheer amount of people. If you have a chance check out the bird’s eye photos of the two rallies. The rally to restore sanity easily outnumbered the Tea Party four times over. Thousands upon thousands of people there with joke picket signs, having a fun time.
Stewart’s closing speech has stuck with me, even now over a decade later. It pains me that it seems that even John Stewart himself seems to have forgotten it, or re-evaluated his stance.
I’ll share some the parts I find particularly important:
I can’t control what people think this was, I can only tell you my intentions. This was not a rally to ridicule people of faith or people of activism or to look down our noses at the heartland or passionate argument, or to suggest that times are not difficult and that we have nothing to fear.
They are and we do. But we live now in hard times, not end times.
And we can have animus and not be enemies.
But unfortunately one our main tools in delineating the two… broke.
The country’s 24 hour politico, pundit, perpetual panic “conflictinator” did not cause our problems but its existence makes solving them that much harder.
The press could hold its magnifying glass up to our problems bringing them into focus illuminating issues here-to-fore unseen.
Or they can use that magnifying glass to light ants on fire and then perhaps host a week of shows on the sudden unexpected dangerous flaming ants epidemic.
If we amplify everything we hear nothing.
There are terrorists and racists and Stalinists and theocrats but those titles that must be earned…you must have the resume.
Not being able to distinguish between real racists and Tea Partiers or real bigots and Juan Williams or Rick Sanchez is an insult not only to those people but to racists themselves who have put in the exhausting effort it takes to hate.
Just as the inability to distinguish terrorists from Muslims makes us less safe not more.
[…]
the image of Americans that is reflected back to us by our political and media process is false.
It is us through a fun house mirror and not the good kind that makes you look slim in the waist and maybe taller, but the kind where you have a giant forehead and an ass shaped like a month old pumpkin and one eyeball.
So why would we work together? Why would you reach across the aisle to a pumpkin assed forehead, eyeball monster?
If the picture of us were true of course our inability to solve problems would actually be quite sane and reasonable.
Why would you work with Marxists actively subverting our constitution, or racists and homophobes who see no ones humanity but their own?
We hear every damn day about how fragile our country is, on the brink of catastrophe, torn by polarizing by hate and how it’s a shame that we can’t work together to get things done.
The truth is we do; we work together to get things done every damn day.
Most American don’t live their lives solely as Democrats, Republicans, liberals or conservatives.
Americans live their lives more as people that are just a little bit late for something they have to do.
Often something they do not want to do. But they do it. Impossible things that are only made possible through the little reasonable compromises we all make.
[Image of a packed highway on screen]
Look, look on the screen this is where we are, this is who we are: these cars.
That’s a school teacher probably thinks his taxes are too high, he’s going to work.
There’s another car, a woman with two small kids can’t really think about anything else right now.
There’s another car swinging, I don’t even know if you can see it.
The lady’s in the NRA and loves Oprah. There’s another car an investment banker, gay, also likes Oprah.
Another car is a Latino carpenter. Another car a fundamentalist vacuum salesman. Atheist Obstetrician. Mormon JZ fan.
But this is us. Every one of the cars that you see is filled with individuals of strong beliefs and principles they hold dear.
Often principles and beliefs in direct opposition to their fellow travelers.
And yet these millions of cars must some how find a way to squeeze one by one into a mile long 30 foot wide tunnel carved underneath a mighty river.
Carved by people by the way that I’m sure had their differences.
And they do it, concession by concession, you go then I’ll go, you go then I’ll go, you go then I’ll go.
Oh my god is that an NRA sticker on your car? Is that an Obama sticker on your car? ahh oh that’s ok you go, then I’ll go.
And sure, at some point there’ll be a selfish jerk who zips up the shoulder and cuts in at the last minute; but that individual is rare and he is scorned and not hired as an analyst.
Because we know instinctively as a people that if we are to get through the darkenss and back into the light we have to work together.
And the truth is there will always be darkness.
And sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t the Promised Land, sometimes it’s just New Jersey.
Time and time again I see people with good intentions effectively saying that “making concessions for those hideous reprehensibles is tacitly supporting them” by allowing a group to have a space to speak, hell sometimes by even allowing a group to exist.
Yes, yes, the tolerance of intolerance paradox and all that. That’s valid and important. My point is that far too often I see people jump the gun.
Go ahead and deplatform people calling for your death. Don’t deplatform them because they don’t think your lifestyle choices aren’t valid/okay, and they are discussing that in a separate space from you.
Make an attempt to ignore them, live and let live, or an honest attempt at discourse in good faith as if you are dealing with other human beings.
Again, not if they are actively calling for the end of your life, but far too often I see people stretch that with “they support ideas that align with people who would deny me my existence” as if there’s some sort of idealogical purity standard we all need to adhere to lest we let the wrong opinions in and taint ourselves by the vaguest of “idealogical association”.
Should we be concerned that the majority of painters are nazis because Hitler liked to paint? Of course fucking not.
Most people are not purely the opinions they espouse online. Often there’s deep layers of nuance left unsaid, personal lived experiences causing them to draw different conclusions from what you think.
The world falls apart if everyone out in real life caused things to come to a screeching halt to shout someone down and call for deplatforming or shunning every time they encountered an opinion they found reprehensible.
I’m guess just tired of the extremism absolutely fucking everywhere. From people with offensice opinions and especially from well meaning people who are motivated by their feelings of righteousness to try and protect themselves and others. People insisting that if you don’t literally use every single opportunity you have to speak out against the wrong of the day, then you are actively supporting that wrong.
Just got a general day to day mood of “Sir, this is a Wendy’s”
Rally to restore sanity was a blast. The whole reddit team (myself included, at the time) were there, and Raldi wrote a neat little QR code network feature, where you could scan other redditor’s QR codes, and after it was done we released a graph showing the network effects, who met whom at the rally, or the minor rallies across the country.
That was back when reddit was actually fun. I can’t imagine, nor would I attend, any modern rally event with the purpose of meeting redditors
That must have been an interesting time to be part of the team there! Reddit was an amazing site back in the day, and it’s a tragedy that so much good and interesting “internet firsts” that it did/enabled are being lost now with the crap.
There’s no obligation, but the lemmy/kbin github projects might get some use out of your knowledge. They’re a bit overwhelmed right now and everyone has differing ideas of how to do stuff like deal with bots, brigading, etc.
Unfortunately I missed out on the QR code thing, but I did manage to snag one of the last shirts! Colbert’s (I think it was Colbert’s letter on the back) writing team really went overboard on weaving memes into his “letter”, but that was totally in line with online culture of the time.
Not sure if that was real or not.
Uh, no. It wasn’t, so it would be better to not repeat it as if it was credible.
Thanks for keeping me honest! I’ll edit it. Unfortunately comment edits don’t seem to sync across different instances consistently yet. I should probably be more careful before posting a comment for now.
Sure, not to try to slight you, just the “concrete milkshake” thing was something spread by Andy Ngo to try to pretend he was a victim and that “Antifa” was a wild anarchic hate group out to harm people.
Oh? I don’t know about the “fairness doctorine”.
You owe it to yourself to read the wiki article at least. It died under Reagan.
Ya about the time it became out dated and irrelevant. Doesn’t apply to the internet or cable TV.
He should have extended it as opposed to ending it. But that’s kind of the problem with him and his administration. All of the deregulation of his time is what led to today’s bullshit. He will go down as the worst president in recent history in my books.
The internet itself is far more to blame than either of the factors you cite. Why? Because it destroyed journalism’s traditional revenue model and in so doing murdered local news. Only the biggest legacy news organizations can still make ends meet through a subscription base, so the result is that everyone else is left churning out bullshit clickbait articles in a competition for views.
“Information wants to be free,” was the mantra of the early internet, and that’s nice as far as it goes, but good journalism is expensive and when we gut the revenue stream of an entire industry, we shouldn’t be surprised that what’s left kind of sucks.
I received the most incredibly chiding, condescending and critical reply on Lemmy the other day, for saying one sentence which was just adding some info to a reply chain. “Oh, that’s also called this”. I was told “pedantic much??” and then the person ranted for a paragraph about how I was a terrible person seeking to spread discontent, and various other bizarre insulting bullshit. Best part: they mod 6-7 subs on some instance. So… Lemmy isn’t a magic formula, unfortunately. The same people are excited to make it just as bad as reddit ever has been.
I’m hopeful Lemmy can avoid the hate/outrage/fear cycle. At the moment it feels very peaceful.
I often wondered if a need to sell advertising space and user data led to reddit pushing content that catered to anger, outrage and fear, as it drives engagement.
I often wondered if a need to sell advertising space and user data led to reddit pushing content that catered to anger, outrage and fear, as it drives engagement.
I suspect it did. There have been studies on the general phenomenon, although I don’t know of any that focused on reddit in particular.
There will always be obnoxious jerks, of course. With Lemmy, though, there’s no profit motive behind promoting them, and no algorithm that’s biased in their favor. Without a profit motive, there’s no reason to hand assholes a megaphone.
Plus, the admins basically run an employee operated co-op with eachother. They can foster and nurture the kinds of interactions they enjoy online without any need to attract more users, advertising dollars, or anything else. Their instance gets to be whatever version of the ideal online community they always imagined
Post that trigger outrage are much more likely to be upvoted. Users feel good seeing their ideas reinforced especially in contrasting “us vs them” scenarios.
Anger is an extremely effective way to spread an idea.
Posts which incite emotion in you make you engage - upvote, comment and share. CGP Grey (a redditor himself) made a great video about this a while ago.
We can only hope Lemmy users are more self-aware, and choose to engage with things they enjoy more than things they hate. But given human psychology, it’s unlikely…
Strong emotions drive participation, which in a For-Profit Social Media site means more eyeballs for more time, hence more money from advertisers.
As it happens adversarial hate (i.e. two sides, pitches against each other, humans hating humans rather than just a hate for something generic like “poverty” or “light beer”) is amongst the strongest and certainly one of the easiest to create.
My hope is that in the absence of a profit motivation and of popularity-score-keeping in the form of karma, the fediverse won’t turn into that specific kind of swamp. That said, only time will tell.
Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Instagram…their default content (your frontpage, your personal feed, etc) show you the content their algorithms have determined will make you most engaged and remain there longer to 1. Generate more free content for them to sell, 2. command your attention so they can sell that attention to advertisers. Corporate “social” media is technically “social exploitation” and has effects that reach into the real world. The behaviors they feeds spill into our interactions in real life.
I think there is only one affective way to deal with this. Shit stirrers are looking for negative engagement. Downvotes are engagement, they show them people are reading their tripe and are “triggered”. Correcting/arguing same thing. On lemmy I have zero tolerance for bigotry, both sidesism, just asking questions, etc. Immediately blocked. If everyone just refused to engage and blocked they would move on without the attention they so crave. It honestly does wonders for mental health not dealing with people being intentionally provocative.
For anyone who would like to be all " Yea but freeze peach, discourse across the aisle, safe space, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Id be happy for you to stick your head up so I can ignore and block you. See above.
So, are you saying that “reaching across the aisle” and hearing alternative views are bad things? I get avoiding hate speech and excessive negativity but is think a happy medium would be more healthy.
I think that hearing alternative views isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but humoring insane takes is. I feel like there’s a difference.
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This person is spreading misinformation, anti-trans propaganda, and using false equivalences, all of which have been established and disseminated by known hate groups.
But was he being hateful for simply saying them? He wasn’t calling anyone hateful things, calling for anything to be banned, calling for anyone to have rights taken away. He was making meta-commentary on how discussion of this stuff or anything adjacent to it is forbidden and tend to get conversation just completely shut down.
Like this shit is some sort of high grade SCP style cognito-hazard.
I can’t see how anyone can expect to make inroads against these beliefs if they aren’t willing to engage with the people who hold them as if they’re a reasonable person with some bad takes (until they prove themselves otherwise). I think most people have just given up and just lump people who say shit like this in with the legitimately hateful, earned or not.
I get that most of us don’t have the energy for trying to talk people out of harmful beliefs and it’s easier to just cut things off at the pass to be safe, but I fear the proliferation of this sort of action is eliminating opportunities to bridge these idealogical gaps.
Surely you don’t slash the tires of every car you see with some dumbass Trump bumper sticker right? Run every NRA bumper sticker off the road? You ignore it, at most you glare and get on with your life. Maybe you make a mental note of who has those stickers to avoid them.
I fully respect the admins/mods rights to say “we aren’t having this discussion here”, your rights to speak against that sort of post and block it, etc. No one should have to interact with shit they don’t want to, or give platform to shit they don’t want to.
I just get so tired of this argument that if you say shit that bad people have said then you’re a bad person, instead of maybe just someone otherwise reasonable with some shit beliefs (until proven otherwise).
If that’s a wrong take, some sort of “hateful person in the closet” statement, then do what you need I guess. I’m just tired man.
I think most people have just given up and just lump people who say shit like this in with the legitimately hateful, earned or not.
You’re absolutely correct. From where I sit, I wasn’t put on this earth to educate settlers and those who sound like them who should know better by now with the entirety of the Library of Alexandria at their fingertips. There’s other people with less skin in the game than me who can stick their necks out and catch those rounds when they come. I’ve seen no definitive proof that ‘the other side of the aisle’ even sees me and mine as human, across about a hundred sixty years; so why take that chance anymore in a climate that slides closer and closer to civil war?
I agree with you and I feel like I should have taken the time to discuss the post before I removed it. Misinformation is against the sitewide rules so I jumped on it, but you’re right. It was a lost opportunity to educate someone.
See what I mean? ^^^
Insanity
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Hopefully so. I feel that our time and attention are the most precious things we have and happiness largely depends on being careful who and what we give our time and attention.
