The art of vassalisation: How Russia’s war on Ukraine has transformed transatlantic relations
ecfr.eu
Europeans’ response to Russia’s war on Ukraine confirms their profound dependence on the US – an unwise position given the security challenge in Europe and coming geopolitical competition with China.

The report is absolutely scathing. Some choice quotes:

But when the next crisis came, both the US and the governments of Europe fell back on old models of alliance leadership. Europe, as EU high representative for foreign affairs Josep Borrell loudly lamented prior to Russia’s invasion, is not really at the table when it comes to dealing with the Russia-Ukraine crisis. It has instead embarked on a process of vassalisation.

But “alone” had a very specific meaning for Scholz. He was unwilling to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine unless the US also sent its own main battle tank, the M1 Abrams. It was not enough that other partners would send tanks or that the US might send other weapons. Like a scared child in a room full of strangers, Germany felt alone if Uncle Sam was not holding its hand.

Europeans’ lack of agency in the Russia-Ukraine crisis stems from this growing power imbalance in the Western alliance. Under the Biden administration, the US has become ever more willing to exercise this growing influence.

  • albiguEnglish
    1·
    1 year ago

    Please no needless rudeness, thancc. Also you forgot to respond to the absolute only thing I actually care about (the “Russia can’t match Ukraine” while Russia controls their war goals contradiction), while talking a lot about a bunch tangential stuff I explicitly mentioned is besides the point. Could you properly address that bit rather than focusing on unrelated morality questions?

    Are you fucking serious. “Was it ever a Ukrainian demand to stop the genocide of Ukrainian people”. Are you listening to yourself. Have you touched grass recently.

    I have, just this morning in fact. The blades of grass sadly don’t bring news about European wars. You might not be aware, but the world outside cares very little about this one war. Please answer the question or ignore it, but there’s no need to be this aggressive for a basic curious question. If you care so much about Ukraine, you could provide the info you have rather than attack me for asking. And if you think this answer is so obvious, instead provide me a link.

    People who had it happening to them don’t call it “evacuation”. Evacuations also don’t tend to be by force, or end in internment camps.

    You seem to misunderstand what I said there. I am not advocating for the Russian forces to “evacuate” Ukrainians from the warzone, but rather for the Ukraine government to evacuate all civilians who can’t or don’t wish to contribute to the war to their western allies in Europe. That is not happening right now, and could possibly save many lives. Could even use those NATO transports. It’s not good for the war cause, yes, but it would save lives.

    You claim to be “oh so neutral” and yet you’re regurgitating Kremlin propaganda 1:1. I have no idea who you’re trying to convince, here.

    No idea what that is about. Sadly I don’t know Russian and get most of my news from popular European and Unitedstadian outlets, so I find it hard to believe I’m getting it from the Kremlin. If that is just a knee-jerk reaction to the previous misunderstanding, I apologise I guess.

    That’s wounded, not killed. Killed we have about 70k Russians, maybe 20k Ukrainian soldiers. Not counting civilians (which are overwhelmingly Ukrainian, anyway).

    Thank you for the correction. In either case, it’s a lot of people dead, specially on the Russian side. I think the point still stands there.

    Obviously, Russia throwing more soldiers into the grinder to die has not proven effective in advancing its war goals, so why aren’t they fucking off to their side of the border? This kind of logic always cuts both ways and you applying it to one side only betrays your bias.

    I don’t see any Russians here advocating for the continuation of the war, do you? If they were I’d equally push back at their ideas. But the reality here is that they control some regions, and kindly asking a military to forgo all of its conquests will mean that the war was for nothing. Meanwhile, Zelensky’s administration in conjunction with NATO seems intent on dragging this war out until either Russia loses all conquests or every able-bodied Ukrainian is dead. Now which sounds more viable as a peace talk demand, for Russia to forgo every conquest they’ve spent Russian lives, labour and capital on, and also pay a bunch of reparations on top of their sanctions, or for Ukraine to accept its current de facto domain and work within it to safeguard the lives of Ukrainians in all lands without having to send more troops on counter-offensive after counter-offensive? Neither is a pleasant choice, but there are no pleasant choices in war.

    “We” doesn’t matter. Ukraine will fight until it’s free, Russia until it’s exhausted. That’s what’s going to happen, that’s how war works, no matter your preference, war is and will always be unaesthetic: It continues until the parties have an agreement on what can be achieved by both sides, and with Russia being unrealistic (because jingoist and superiority complex and валяй, ебёна мать!1) it’s dragging out. Russia’s mind about its own goals cannot currently be changed by any other means but on the battlefield, that’s why that’s where negotiations take place.

    And then I guess we circle back to the old point where Russia has already pretty much achieved its goal and is just fighting to keep what land they grabbed at this point. I think it’s just a matter of opinion on what is “unrealistic”, as I also find it very unrealistic to believe some invading army would just give up on its conquests, specially if they believe their own rhetoric (and I’m pretty sure a bunch of them do) of trying to prevent NATO encroachment and protecting the Russians in the now annexed lands. Could the same case for “unrealistic” not be applied to Ukrainians who demand such capitulation? If “Ukraine will fight until it’s free”, it’s safe to assume that the war will go on until either every able-bodied Ukrainian (who hasn’t fled illegally) is dead or victory is achieved. I would certainly not support some government in marshal law that puts in practice such a plan.

    I subscribe to the same philosophy as Linus Torvalds in these matters. You can rest assured that I’m not writing in anger.

    Linus Torvalds is famous for his C programming skills, not his communication capabilities. It would be less of a waste of both our times if you spent your words on information rather than petty insults.

    You probably don’t get the reference: Pushkin, The Wagon of Life.

    Sorry, I don’t read European poetry. can I interest you in some Funk?

      • albiguEnglish
        1·
        1 year ago

        If you don’t want me to address points, maybe don’t bring them up?

        I actually only want you to address one specific point, but you keep bringing up completely irrelevant cultural or moral tangents and neglecting to keep the conversation on the very material subject on which I started this conversation. I am merely addressing those points and specifically how they don’t matter to this discussion. If I may say so, it looks like you’re intentionally avoiding the subject.

        If I need to repeat myself yet again, how come “Russia can’t even match Ukraine” if, as you’ve implied multiple times, Ukraine is dependant on NATO support (a group they’re no part of) to push back the current Russian occupation that has remained more or less in place for over an year? And how does this entire 1 year history of war not show that Russia has actually at least matched Ukraine? Possible future prospects or “what could’ve happened” don’t matter when analysing the reality of the past 1 year of the war.

        It is completely okay to admit you were being hyperbolic there, but you insist in not even acknowledging those points, much less arguing against them, while trying to lecture me about some intrinsic characteristic of Slavic peoples.

        Random moral and ethnic tangents from somebody who can’t stop.

        About 8.2 million, that’s like 20%, have fled. Numbers oscillate but many are going back to help the war effort, sometimes even with children.

        And yet, men aged over 18 are barred from leaving. According to the UN, 90% of those who left are women and children. I’m sure you don’t actually think every single Ukrainian adult man wants to stay. Many are doing unconventional methods to bypass this ban, which are not accessible to all. Believe it or not, but some people don’t want to fight. Keeping them there against their will does not save Ukrainian lives.

        If you get your information from European media, you’re not getting told those kinds of cultural and historical background because they don’t need to be said. If you get your news from the US it’s likely that it’s at least interspersed with Kremlin propaganda. They don’t understand why Europe is fighting, either, they just want to bonk some Russkis, don’t want to be seen not doing anything while the rest of NATO is up in arms, but also need to be dragged into doing things – because they don’t understand Russia.

        So what you’re saying is that NATO news outlets that bend over backwards to support Ukraine are actually parroting propaganda from their enemy? Are the only reliable propaganda-less sources the Ukraine military and the youtubers you’ve mentioned at this point? Also I’m pretty sure not everybody is a Ukraine nerd in Europe, so the European news would still have to explain how Slavic peoples are so different and how that uniqueness impacts the war, which has had severe material impacts to all of Europe. I’m pretty sure not everybody in your neighbourhood is an expert in both the Scots, Portuguese and Libyans.

        First off, no because Ukraine will have won long before then. Secondly, no because if the war was going badly for Ukraine (it isn’t) Poles etc. would volunteer en masse. Speaking of Poland the only reason their military isn’t in Ukraine right now is because NATO also is a leash.

        Would’ve, could’ve, should’ve. This is all speculation that 1) Ukraine is going to win, or 2) Poland would go against NATO to participate in the war. Either way, it still demands more blood for the blood god which is a weird way of saying “yes, I think it’s safe to assume that escalation will follow rather than cutting losses in case Ukraine doesn’t win”. I guess in order to save Ukraine every Eastern European should go die and kill there? Is this about saving Ukrainian lives or Ukrainian soil at this point?

        Yes. That’s why they have to be kicked out by force.

        Which goes directly in the face of your portrayal of them as being unrealistic in their demands. If in order to get your peace demand you need to completely shift the tide of the war, maybe your demand is the most tenuous one. “Realistic” demands for peace include only what is practical for both sides to achieve in the current moment, not ones that might be possible in some future that one side hopes for.

        And here I thought you said you wanted to learn more about Russia. That poem describes the Russian soul and its own exasperation with it.

        I guess I misspoke but I have no interest on Russian literature or poetry, but rather the material realities of the people, whatever their ethnicity and culture. No song is going to inform me about whether or not Russia currently controls Donetsk or Crimea, and insistence on such subjective media rather than the established facts brings nothing of use to the table. And again, summarising one entire diverse country by a single song seems awfully simplistic.

        As to the more general point of “Russia is losing”: I guess it’s useless to argue further, you’ve made up your mind. Ukraine and its people disagree with you.

        I don’t think I need “Ukraine and its people” to agree with me on this seem I’m not talking to them right now and they’re not a single hivemind with only one opinion. As you’ve said, 20% of them have even fled, though you also failed to provide a source. What I’m stating is a simple statement, “Russia has achieved its war goals and therefore has matched Ukraine”, and instead of explaining why I’m wrong you keep deferring to songs, youtubers and some bizarrely reductionist notions of ethnicity. If you don’t wish to talk about it, don’t waste your typing fingers beating around the bush. You seem to be mixing your moral feelings about the war with your material analyses, and that’s generally not helpful even if you end up correct in the end by a stroke of luck.

        But if you do want to actually explain to me how “Russia can’t even match Ukraine” despite the course of the war so far, without resorting to hopes and dreams and speculation or including foreign factors like NATO support, I’m all ears actually.

        Promise me you’ll eat your shoes if Ukraine wins in under a year from now and I promise I will neither gloat nor insist you actually do it.

        I’ll actually eat my food like any other day. I’ll not even shed a tear or smile. Believe it or not, I don’t spend much of my time thinking about this war amidst all other world issues. I don’t have any stake in it and I don’t care which side wins in the end, which is why I don’t bother speculating on the future. I’m rather interested in this war ending whatever it takes with the least harm done to all peoples, and if it takes the Russian annexation of lands it currently controls, the human rights situations can be sorted in peacetime. Besides, this war is really annoying for global geopolitics even though nobody even knew where Ukraine was on the map 2 years ago. They’re not that relevant out there to anybody but Eurocentrists.

        (complete banger, no, not Funk)

        lmao imagine thinking that some generic European anthem is a banger compared to Funk music or literally any genre from outside Europe. Can’t wait to listen to the baroque choir on my Spotify. “Deutschland Deutschland über alles, über alles in die Welt” derivatives is definitely something the world loves listening to. Is there even good music coming from Europe since Daft Punk retired?

        But since you offered, I offer you back Guantanamera as an olive branch, because I’ve been listening to it the other day.

        Reminder: Russia has matched Ukraine militarily, and Ukraine is just now possibly getting to match it back. This is not a moral statement. Reply to that first, then you can proceed to tell me about your understanding the intricacies of Slavic culture.

          • albiguEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            The whole thing was in response to “Europe needs the US to be protected against Russia”. That’s the context. No, Ukraine could not stand against Russia without foreign help, at least not in the way it is now – we’d see a partisan war.

            There we have it. Thank you for finally stopping the assumption that I’m arguing some grander point than I was. Russia can match Ukraine. We can move on from this now. Only took some 10 replies.

            No, but this is war. Even if you’re not needed on the front lines you’re needed repairing infrastructure or baking bread. I don’t buy the “I need to protect my wife abroad” thing btw you’re moving to Poland or Germany, not Somalia.

            You do know that there are other reasons for people to not want to be in a warzone other than “protecting wife”, don’t you? Not going into the Somalia/Germany comparison there, but there are people, be they bakers, engineers or even soldiers, that have fled from Ukraine, but are legally barred to do so. What do you think of those men who only wish to leave Ukraine and the war but legally can’t? I’d bet there are even some ethnic Russians and other minorities from Ukraine that’d rather not be part of it too. Not to protect some elusive wife, but to protect themselves.

            Even if we accept the “they only want those territories” idea: Noone has achieved any goals before the war is over. They also have to hold those territories – and probably also want to get rid of sanctions. War is the continuation of politics by different means (Clausewitz, read him), as long as Ukraine doesn’t cede to Russia’s claim, or is forced to, Russia’s political and thus war goals are not achieved.

            Then we’re just arguing semantics. Russia currently controls most of the claimed regions and if God demanded an armistice they’d keep most of it. It is up to the Ukrainian forces to change that if they insist on war. They don’t need to wait for some formal declaration of peace so long as they hold the regions. They have de facto achieved their goals. Both Korean countries claims jurisdiction over all Korea, but they don’t have much authority in each other lands. It would be plainly ignorant for either to demand the other to unconditionally cede their domain. But it would also be nonsensical to claim then that either is trouncing the other given they can’t push each other out of their respective domains. The ball is on Ukraine’s court to take the lands back if they so wish, which means they’re on the losing side right now. You’re missing the forest for the trees on that one.

            Generally speaking if I hear “The US is defending Europe” it’s usually from Trumpists or, I guess this proves the horseshoe theory, Tankies.

            I’m confused. Where are the Tankies in this? Are we Trump? The USA? Europe? The Leopards? If you people are at war with each other and the USA helps out, what do we have to do with it? Are we asking the USA to defend or attack Europe? Very confusing.

            Or do you refer to the USA protecting European capitalist interests (which don’t include the interests of the working class Europeans) by destabilising foreign powers that pose a threat to European imperialism? Well, if that is the case, I’m not sure how the wars on Iraq, Libya or Afghanistan, or the dozen interventions in America Proper helped the working class Europeans. If y’all really don’t like the Unitedstadian support, please do ask for a referendum to leave or disband NATO. You’ll find plenty of leftist support worldwide.

            No I’m saying that America is infiltrated by Russian assets and they’re being quite oblivious to how Russia operates in that regard. Russia has successfully had Americans at each other’s throats for a good 20 years now.

            Ah yes, Unitedstadians haven’t been famously killing and oppressing their own before Putin got into power. The FBI is a KGB branch and all.

            But more to the point, as to banger national anthems, try the Tuvan one, complete with throat singing.

            sounds neat, reminds me of this monster hunter track

            As to European music, motherfucker. Probably 90% of the world’s metal output is written here and countries which are unable to produce metal (such as France) then rock when it comes to other things, in France’s case, Electronica. Case in point, have some minimal Techno. But to circle back to Ukraine, have some Heilung.

            I’m sorry, neither of those are really that popular out there. K-pop, Funk and hip-hop variants are really blooming though. Also why is the Ukrainian one German and singing in English? Either way, have yet another cultural wonder from far away.