It’s not so much that the state has a monopoly on violence. It’s that for it to not have a monopoly on violence, it would mean that non-state actors would have to choose to do violence.
That’s not an easy choice to make, is it? History is filled with accounts of crazies who chose violence but who chose it because they like the idea of violence more than for any other reason… and they ended up monsters. It’s admirable that people would not want to become that.
When is violence justified? Against whom? How can you safeguard things so that the even initially justifiable violence doesn’t go too far, spin out of control? More importantly, possibly, is what you do after your violence succeeds… you’ve built up this paramilitary force to perform the violence, they’ve won, and now they’re de facto in charge. You end up with goons running the show, because you needed goons to beat the other guy. You might be a goon yourself. That’s nearly always bad. You almost need some separate organization afterward, of civilians, to take over. How do you keep it separate during the struggle?
It might be more accurate to say that the state doesn’t so much have a monopoly on violence as that it’s just the only group out there sociopathic enough to want to use it.
There are never any guarantees in life, however that’s hardly an argument against fighting injustice. What we do see is that socialist states do a far better job meeting the needs of the majority than capitalist ones. Such states can have many problems, but they’re an undeniable improvement over capitalism.
The default state of things in the west is that monopoly on violence is in the hands of capitalists, and it’s currently being used to subjugate the rest of the population to the will of capitalists.
The trouble is that I’m not a “majority” I am a person. More to the point, I am a person who is more used to not being in the majority than I am in it. “Good for the majority” in many cases has often left me out.
It isn’t in my interest to pursue strategies that are good for the majority. There are others like me.
Such states can have many problems, but they’re an undeniable improvement over capitalism.
That’s not clear at all. Let’s go with the “at least communism fed everyone”. In the United States, literally no one starves who isn’t anorexic or similarly mentally ill. Homeless people are fat.
We can talk about other metrics too (spaces races and whatnot), but capitalism seems to at least keep up with communism in those regards without some really absurd double standards.
The default state of things in the west is that monopoly on violence is in the hands of capitalists, and it’s currently being used to subjugate the rest of the population to the will of capitalists.
Which of course never happened in the Soviet Union or Cuba, or any of the the other places?
Look, I’m not even you’re opponent here. There is a profound philosophical question here, one that if anyone actually bothers to attempt to solve it, the sort of violence you think is a solution might actually become possible.
More to the point, not just possible, but justifiable. Like, provably so. Even to people like myself who don’t conform to your ideology.
Wouldn’t it be great if, for instance, we could look at some event somewhere in the world, apply the rules, and say “in situations like this where x and y are occurring, and where z does not occur, that violence was justified”? We have those rules mostly worked out for individual scenarios. We know what self-defense looks like.
We don’t have those rules worked out for group/collective scenarios. And until we do, it will always be anxiety-inducing to contemplate the violence, and politically dangerous to even talk about it (for fear of terrorism conspiracy charges). Better still, with the rules worked out and agreed upon (mostly or wholly), we’d likely see quite alot of behavior changing in a hurry when the government realizes it is inviting justified rebellion if it doesn’t… without having to resort to the violence.
The part you have to get over first is accepting that it may truly be the case that if we figure those rules out honestly, some of your heroes may turn out to have been “not so heroic” and some of your examples of good governments may turn out to have been the tyrants their detractors have claimed all along.
The trouble is that I’m not a “majority” I am a person. More to the point, I am a person who is more used to not being in the majority than I am in it. “Good for the majority” in many cases has often left me out.
Let’s be more specific here then. When means of production are owned publicly then they’re used to create things that are socially necessary and benefit most people. Things like roads, hospitals, schools, public transit, and so on. This is where work should be directed in a fair society.
That’s not clear at all. Let’s go with the “at least communism fed everyone”. In the United States, literally no one starves who isn’t anorexic or similarly mentally ill. Homeless people are fat.
We can talk about other metrics too (spaces races and whatnot), but capitalism seems to at least keep up with communism in those regards without some really absurd double standards.
Absolutely false, the life style in imperial core is directly built on the exploitation of other countries. US was literally founded on genocide and slavery. Even within US itself people of color are exploited at a far higher rate than whites. US also holds 20% of world’s prison population, predominantly minorities, and these are used as slave labor.
Which of course never happened in the Soviet Union or Cuba, or any of the the other places?
Hard to subjugate the population to the will of capitalists when you don’t have capitalists. Means of production in states like Soviet Union or Cuba are under public control and the work is directed towards common benefit.
Look, I’m not even you’re opponent here. There is a profound philosophical question here, one that if anyone actually bothers to attempt to solve it, the sort of violence you think is a solution might actually become possible.
We have mountains of historical evidence that communist revolutions result in improved living conditions for the people of the country. It’s also worth noting that violence has never been the first thing revolutionaries reach for. Revolutions invariably start with peaceful protests, strikes, and other non-violent means. These actions are invariably met with state violence, and that’s how things escalate towards violent revolutions.
However, the key point to acknowledge here is that capitalist states are inherently violent. People are forced into a situation where they have to work for capitalists or starve on the streets. The purpose of the work is to create wealth for the business owners, which is fundamentally different from the purpose of work in a socialist states. In effect, majority of the population is coerced into slaving for the capital owning class. This system is maintained through state violence.
The part you have to get over first is accepting that it may truly be the case that if we figure those rules out honestly, some of your heroes may turn out to have been “not so heroic” and some of your examples of good governments may turn out to have been the tyrants their detractors have claimed all along.
Having personally lived under both communism and capitalism, I find the former to be vastly preferable. Communist states aren’t perfect, but they are a significant improvement over capitalism.
It’s not so much that the state has a monopoly on violence. It’s that for it to not have a monopoly on violence, it would mean that non-state actors would have to choose to do violence.
That’s not an easy choice to make, is it? History is filled with accounts of crazies who chose violence but who chose it because they like the idea of violence more than for any other reason… and they ended up monsters. It’s admirable that people would not want to become that.
When is violence justified? Against whom? How can you safeguard things so that the even initially justifiable violence doesn’t go too far, spin out of control? More importantly, possibly, is what you do after your violence succeeds… you’ve built up this paramilitary force to perform the violence, they’ve won, and now they’re de facto in charge. You end up with goons running the show, because you needed goons to beat the other guy. You might be a goon yourself. That’s nearly always bad. You almost need some separate organization afterward, of civilians, to take over. How do you keep it separate during the struggle?
It might be more accurate to say that the state doesn’t so much have a monopoly on violence as that it’s just the only group out there sociopathic enough to want to use it.
There are never any guarantees in life, however that’s hardly an argument against fighting injustice. What we do see is that socialist states do a far better job meeting the needs of the majority than capitalist ones. Such states can have many problems, but they’re an undeniable improvement over capitalism.
The default state of things in the west is that monopoly on violence is in the hands of capitalists, and it’s currently being used to subjugate the rest of the population to the will of capitalists.
The trouble is that I’m not a “majority” I am a person. More to the point, I am a person who is more used to not being in the majority than I am in it. “Good for the majority” in many cases has often left me out.
It isn’t in my interest to pursue strategies that are good for the majority. There are others like me.
That’s not clear at all. Let’s go with the “at least communism fed everyone”. In the United States, literally no one starves who isn’t anorexic or similarly mentally ill. Homeless people are fat.
We can talk about other metrics too (spaces races and whatnot), but capitalism seems to at least keep up with communism in those regards without some really absurd double standards.
Which of course never happened in the Soviet Union or Cuba, or any of the the other places?
Look, I’m not even you’re opponent here. There is a profound philosophical question here, one that if anyone actually bothers to attempt to solve it, the sort of violence you think is a solution might actually become possible.
More to the point, not just possible, but justifiable. Like, provably so. Even to people like myself who don’t conform to your ideology.
Wouldn’t it be great if, for instance, we could look at some event somewhere in the world, apply the rules, and say “in situations like this where x and y are occurring, and where z does not occur, that violence was justified”? We have those rules mostly worked out for individual scenarios. We know what self-defense looks like.
We don’t have those rules worked out for group/collective scenarios. And until we do, it will always be anxiety-inducing to contemplate the violence, and politically dangerous to even talk about it (for fear of terrorism conspiracy charges). Better still, with the rules worked out and agreed upon (mostly or wholly), we’d likely see quite alot of behavior changing in a hurry when the government realizes it is inviting justified rebellion if it doesn’t… without having to resort to the violence.
The part you have to get over first is accepting that it may truly be the case that if we figure those rules out honestly, some of your heroes may turn out to have been “not so heroic” and some of your examples of good governments may turn out to have been the tyrants their detractors have claimed all along.
Let’s be more specific here then. When means of production are owned publicly then they’re used to create things that are socially necessary and benefit most people. Things like roads, hospitals, schools, public transit, and so on. This is where work should be directed in a fair society.
That’s a false statement https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/us/food-insecurity-30-million-census-survey/index.html
Absolutely false, the life style in imperial core is directly built on the exploitation of other countries. US was literally founded on genocide and slavery. Even within US itself people of color are exploited at a far higher rate than whites. US also holds 20% of world’s prison population, predominantly minorities, and these are used as slave labor.
Hard to subjugate the population to the will of capitalists when you don’t have capitalists. Means of production in states like Soviet Union or Cuba are under public control and the work is directed towards common benefit.
We have mountains of historical evidence that communist revolutions result in improved living conditions for the people of the country. It’s also worth noting that violence has never been the first thing revolutionaries reach for. Revolutions invariably start with peaceful protests, strikes, and other non-violent means. These actions are invariably met with state violence, and that’s how things escalate towards violent revolutions.
However, the key point to acknowledge here is that capitalist states are inherently violent. People are forced into a situation where they have to work for capitalists or starve on the streets. The purpose of the work is to create wealth for the business owners, which is fundamentally different from the purpose of work in a socialist states. In effect, majority of the population is coerced into slaving for the capital owning class. This system is maintained through state violence.
Having personally lived under both communism and capitalism, I find the former to be vastly preferable. Communist states aren’t perfect, but they are a significant improvement over capitalism.