What I meant is that if the west was smart they would’ve realized that moving all their production to China would have negative consequences for them down the road. The idea that they would just liberalize China and subjugate it to their interests was pure hubris. China would’ve advanced regardless, but it would’ve had a much harder path developing a lot of the tech from scratch instead of being able to leverage existing western experience.
I understand the rationale for NATO expansion, but we can see that the end result is a disaster. NATO has been exposed as being impotent by Russia. Before the war started, it was simply assumed that NATO was the superior fighting force, and that it would be foolish to try and stand up to it. Now everyone can see that NATO is not all it’s cracked up to be. Importantly, the lack of industrial capacity in the west has been exposed as a glaring problem. We also see how the war in Ukraine emboldened countries around the world to start kicking out western colonizers, particularly in Africa. I expect this will be a self reinforcing phenomenon going forward.
Yes but this is the fundamental process of capitalism. It is not something western strategists could control in the first place. Even China, which is ruled by MLs is affected by the tendencies of capital.
I agree that the problems are inherent in the system, and that’s the fundamental problem. The whole house of cards was destined to collapse sooner or later, but the hubris accelerated the process.
Definitely a problem for the Americans, but it would have been impossible for them to maintain unity between all of the “great powers” of the world under their wing forever.
Right, the whole western alliance is very fragile by nature.
So even though this is a fumble, it is a fumble on a timescale that is difficult for anyone to plan for.
I should add to my point on the other comment. I can imagine that the 90s would have been very dark times for any socialist or communist. I certainly would have never been able to hold on to any hope if I was alive back then no matter how much of a principled ML I would have been.
I think it is as much a testament to the faith that Deng Xiaoping had in the Chinese people as it is a matter of western hubris that China was able to take over the world’s industries.
I do think it is important for us to highlight not just the west’s weaknesses, but also the strengths that other parts of the world possessed. Otherwise we might fall into a eurocentric trap of thinking that Euro-American imperialism’s defeat is just because of their decadent nature.
I very much agree. China ultimately charted their own course, and they managed to outplay the west at every turn. In fact, I think it can be argued that China managed to recognize and capitalize on western hubris. China played an excellent game hiding their true strength, and allowing western chauvinism blind the west to the shift in power balance. Even today, most westerners still don’t understand just how advanced China has become since the 90s. The shock around China’s chip production is a perfect example of that.
they would’ve realized that moving all their production to China would have negative consequences for them down the road.
Fair enough, but historically, China’s relations with the west have not been so overall hostile. Even before reform and opening up, China often sided against the Russians. And especially after reform, China has been more than willing to play ball with the west. Only in modern times has China started to become an obstacle to western hegemony. So even though this is a fumble, it is a fumble on a timescale that is difficult for anyone to plan for.
We also see how the war in Ukraine emboldened countries around the world to start kicking out western colonizers, particularly in Africa.
That is certainly a big loss for the west. Won’t argue on this point.
Regardless of how good the relations have been between China and the west, it should’ve been obvious that losing industrial capacity would put the west in a weak position in the long run. I disagree this is something that couldn’t have been foreseen.
What I meant is that if the west was smart they would’ve realized that moving all their production to China would have negative consequences for them down the road. The idea that they would just liberalize China and subjugate it to their interests was pure hubris. China would’ve advanced regardless, but it would’ve had a much harder path developing a lot of the tech from scratch instead of being able to leverage existing western experience.
I understand the rationale for NATO expansion, but we can see that the end result is a disaster. NATO has been exposed as being impotent by Russia. Before the war started, it was simply assumed that NATO was the superior fighting force, and that it would be foolish to try and stand up to it. Now everyone can see that NATO is not all it’s cracked up to be. Importantly, the lack of industrial capacity in the west has been exposed as a glaring problem. We also see how the war in Ukraine emboldened countries around the world to start kicking out western colonizers, particularly in Africa. I expect this will be a self reinforcing phenomenon going forward.
I agree that the problems are inherent in the system, and that’s the fundamental problem. The whole house of cards was destined to collapse sooner or later, but the hubris accelerated the process.
Right, the whole western alliance is very fragile by nature.
I should add to my point on the other comment. I can imagine that the 90s would have been very dark times for any socialist or communist. I certainly would have never been able to hold on to any hope if I was alive back then no matter how much of a principled ML I would have been.
I think it is as much a testament to the faith that Deng Xiaoping had in the Chinese people as it is a matter of western hubris that China was able to take over the world’s industries.
I do think it is important for us to highlight not just the west’s weaknesses, but also the strengths that other parts of the world possessed. Otherwise we might fall into a eurocentric trap of thinking that Euro-American imperialism’s defeat is just because of their decadent nature.
I very much agree. China ultimately charted their own course, and they managed to outplay the west at every turn. In fact, I think it can be argued that China managed to recognize and capitalize on western hubris. China played an excellent game hiding their true strength, and allowing western chauvinism blind the west to the shift in power balance. Even today, most westerners still don’t understand just how advanced China has become since the 90s. The shock around China’s chip production is a perfect example of that.
Fair enough, but historically, China’s relations with the west have not been so overall hostile. Even before reform and opening up, China often sided against the Russians. And especially after reform, China has been more than willing to play ball with the west. Only in modern times has China started to become an obstacle to western hegemony. So even though this is a fumble, it is a fumble on a timescale that is difficult for anyone to plan for.
That is certainly a big loss for the west. Won’t argue on this point.
Regardless of how good the relations have been between China and the west, it should’ve been obvious that losing industrial capacity would put the west in a weak position in the long run. I disagree this is something that couldn’t have been foreseen.