In my experience the more successful a black person is the more likely they are to be conspiratorial to reconcile their success with their ancestral legacy (How could black people have been slaves for so long, when I have this much potential? We must be native to the US, etc.), and the conspiracy world is often antisemitic, homophobic and enamored with Trump. Remember when Kanye said slavery must have been a choice to go on for 400 years? That strain of thought did not originate from him but is instead a whole political movement.
It’s not always class. There are also a lot of black conservatives and old heads who despise the youth culture because they consider it thuggish and impolite. And even if they do believe in systemic racism, they believe that this culture is what’s keeping them down, either deservingly by the white man or by other black people. Some of them may be rich and attribute their assimilation to the success while others are dirt poor who demand their children assimilate to succeed.
They want you to pull your pants up, and Trump does too.
TLDR: they may be small business owners, but it can also be general conservatism as well as a form of self hatred and guilt.
An open secret is that among the black upper middle class there is an overrepresentation of misogynistic/homophobic/racist/conspiratorial army guys, cops, Christian guys, Black Muslim/hotep guys. Also, well educated conservative African and Caribbean immigrants.
Leftists and liberals do not really want to acknowledge this and don’t want to acknowledge that the tradition, discipline and asceticism such people live by enable them a good degree of social mobility in the US generally unhindered by direct racism. People love saying that the “culture not race” argument is racist but these black folks I am describing will be the first people making that argument and nodding along to it, because to them that is the reality. They fear “urban” people in the same way as any old white Karen.
Both Dems and leftists sort of target their broad strokes messaging toward a swathe of POC and LGBTQ+ people and this inevitably lets the GOP peel off socially conservative members of these groups for whom racism or discrimination aren’t really major day to day issues but taxes and banning LGBT education from schools are.
If the libs were more unapologetic on their affirmative action messaging (AA benefits such groups I’m describing most) and maybe announced sweeping targeted neighborhood revitalization efforts that improved the assimilation of inner city black kids, or blocked property valuation discrimination, all while telling the socially conservative people in marginalized groups that they are expected to coexist with people whose lifestyles they dislike but will be left alone otherwise, they might claw back some of the vote. But you all are blind if you think that the only people calling wayward black teen boys/girls “hoodlums/ghetto” are white boomers–rather than every black person I have ever known who does not live in a metropolitan area, including the liberal ones.
Tl;Dr most leftists and liberals who fight for better outcomes for black Americans do not really know that many middle class black people closely and so sometimes fail to craft messaging as resonant to their material realities as the GOP does.
Source: have been dating the same black partner for 6 years, and their father is a successful Trump and Alex Jones loving rich guy.
As a person with a devout Catholic, conservative, Afro-Caribbean family, I literally have heard them espouse the whole “We’re better than those working-class black Americans because our culture is different!” line of thinking on multiple occasions.
I mean it is myopic but I get how it arises. If a suburban Afro-Carribbean lady goes downtown and is sexually harassed by some overfamiliar black dude with “no home training” it will color her perceptions of working class black Americans in the same way it would shape a suburban white person’s perception. And for black immigrants to America and suburban black Americans things like code switching, having non-stereotypically-black hobbies or fraternizing with white/non-black people extensively are not inaccessible or taboo things, so such people more easily navigate spaces where jobs and opportunities for wealth are more plentiful.
It’s myopic to pin all this on Black American “culture” of course because Black Americans are a people who have never had sovereignty or been the stewards of their collective destiny, and most of the “negative” behaviors blamed on “culture” are downstream from generations of targeted segregation/economic deprivation. But I do think if the white liberal/leftist response when say, there is a viral video of a group of black kids beating on a white kid is only silence, apologism, or tiptoeing, then the angry conservative response even while racially charged is sometimes actually closer to what middle class black Americans/Black immigrants actually want to say about such an event and it’s participants.
There needs to be a frank but forward moving vision involving some sort of direct reparations and mending the faults caused by historical race riots/redlining, to actually resolve key issues surrounding “Foundational Black American” neighborhoods.
One thing I can most certainly tell you is that, when my internalized racism was at its peak, being “not stereotypically black” played a role in it. I felt like both black people and white people were so focused on my race that they forgot that I’m an individual.
I’d get called an “Oreo” and that kind of shit for something as harmless as liking metal. I couldn’t just be a metalhead who happens to be black. Nah, that must raise eyebrows. Having gone through such massive amounts of internalized racism, I definitely know some aspects of where it can come from.
It took a major paradigm shift in how I was perceiving being black in America for me to overcome it. The stereotypes were just one aspect of why my internalized racism got so bad, and it wasn’t even the biggest reason.
I also saw posts by reactionary queer people (think /lgbt/ types) that reinforced the notion that POC are more likely to be queerphobic. This effectively led me to think, “If I’m queer and black, then black people are my enemy, and I should hate them.”
Nowadays, my thinking has certainly changed. It’s no longer “Black people are more homophobic, so I should hate my own race because I’m queer.” It’s more “White people will be racist to me, even the queer ones, and cishet people will be queerphobic to me, even the black ones.” It seemed as if I was pinning black homo/transphobia on race instead of just the fact that it’s black cishet people in particular being this way, just as white cishet people often do. However, I never got any shit or any kind of infighting from my fellow black queer people. Even beyond racism, forms of gatekeeping like transmedicalism and enbyphobia in the trans community are things I’ve only seen white trans people commit.
Definitely based for acknowledging that class seems to trump race in these circumstances, even if people don’t realize it. There seems to be a real lack of awareness of how all of this shit ties together in the grand scheme of things. Myopic, as you said.
Just because you’re part of one group doesn’t mean you’ve extrapolated your experiences to the experiences of others. A lot of people are opposed to discrimination they personally are affected by, but are 10000% okay with similar shit happening to other demographics. A lot of gay men are misogynistic. A lot of white women are racist. A lot of black people are antisemitic. A lot of Asians are homophobic. And so on and so forth.
A variety of things fuel black antisemitism. NOI being one of them. There are the supremacist types that cope with racism by ignoring material reality and actual black history in favor of claims like black people built the great wall of china or were the first to invent [thing that was invented by rich white european]. Often times the conclusion is white colonizers erase the “true history”… with the jews dictating everything. Sometimes it’ll even circle from hating white people to praising Hitler lol.
The homophobia in a lot of POC culture may come conservatism that’s native to their culture, but it may also stem from being afraid that the discrimination the POC group is facing may lose attention to LGBT problems which they consider unimportant and white people problems, especially if their culture doesn’t have a strong presence or positive reception to LGBT people in the first place.
I’ll never forget the time a Japanese American conservative on Instagram told me that me being a black non-binary person is the product of me having a “”““white liberal friend group.””“”
I can attest to this. My family will constantly complain about racism and discrimination against Asian people, but the they’ll repeat the same discrimination against everyone else, including Asian people lol.
There’s also conservatives with gay children. While many go ballistic and denounce and abuse them, others rationalize this by thinking “well, my kid was raised by me, and I’m normal, so they’re normal too even if they’re not straight! I’m totally fine with them being gay. But as for the other gays….” For example, Ted Cruz has a bisexual daughter. Shortly after her suicide attempt, she went on social media to say her dad didn’t have anything to do with it and that they’re close. It could be PR, but I believe it. He doesn’t restrict her sexuality, but he also doesn’t bring attention to it and they’re rich enough to be protected in any case. Some conservatives have “spoken out” in defense when their children come out as gay or trans, but usually after the kid has been bullied and they see the first hand effects of their ideology.
He’s most likely petty bourgeois or a vet or something. If he has a white (female) partner and is living in a white majority neighborhood, then he’s definitely a certain type of Black person.
It’s not that unusual. Like, Black people aren’t a monolith who can recite Malcolm X or Kwame Ture speeches from memory. There are plenty of politically misinformed, self-interested, or mentally colonized individuals just like every other marginalized community.
it fucks me up when people don’t realize any individual human can be a fucked up dumbass and it’s a result of that persons agency combined with whatever constellation of events created their experiences.
I’ve heard people argue the whole “POC and colored person are the same because they sound similar!” thing, but it completely neglects the fact that whether a term is used derogatorily or not is more important for considering it a slur than just “how it sounds.” You’d seldom, if ever, hear people use POC as a slur, but colored person, like you said, has been used as such.
Call people what they want to be called personally, but I’m not identifying all black anmericans and guessing who is and who is not a descendant of a slavery.
deleted by creator
Class > Race. Many black petit bourgeoisie.
deleted by creator
In my experience the more successful a black person is the more likely they are to be conspiratorial to reconcile their success with their ancestral legacy (How could black people have been slaves for so long, when I have this much potential? We must be native to the US, etc.), and the conspiracy world is often antisemitic, homophobic and enamored with Trump. Remember when Kanye said slavery must have been a choice to go on for 400 years? That strain of thought did not originate from him but is instead a whole political movement.
It’s not always class. There are also a lot of black conservatives and old heads who despise the youth culture because they consider it thuggish and impolite. And even if they do believe in systemic racism, they believe that this culture is what’s keeping them down, either deservingly by the white man or by other black people. Some of them may be rich and attribute their assimilation to the success while others are dirt poor who demand their children assimilate to succeed.
They want you to pull your pants up, and Trump does too.
TLDR: they may be small business owners, but it can also be general conservatism as well as a form of self hatred and guilt.
deleted by creator
An open secret is that among the black upper middle class there is an overrepresentation of misogynistic/homophobic/racist/conspiratorial army guys, cops, Christian guys, Black Muslim/hotep guys. Also, well educated conservative African and Caribbean immigrants.
Leftists and liberals do not really want to acknowledge this and don’t want to acknowledge that the tradition, discipline and asceticism such people live by enable them a good degree of social mobility in the US generally unhindered by direct racism. People love saying that the “culture not race” argument is racist but these black folks I am describing will be the first people making that argument and nodding along to it, because to them that is the reality. They fear “urban” people in the same way as any old white Karen.
Both Dems and leftists sort of target their broad strokes messaging toward a swathe of POC and LGBTQ+ people and this inevitably lets the GOP peel off socially conservative members of these groups for whom racism or discrimination aren’t really major day to day issues but taxes and banning LGBT education from schools are.
If the libs were more unapologetic on their affirmative action messaging (AA benefits such groups I’m describing most) and maybe announced sweeping targeted neighborhood revitalization efforts that improved the assimilation of inner city black kids, or blocked property valuation discrimination, all while telling the socially conservative people in marginalized groups that they are expected to coexist with people whose lifestyles they dislike but will be left alone otherwise, they might claw back some of the vote. But you all are blind if you think that the only people calling wayward black teen boys/girls “hoodlums/ghetto” are white boomers–rather than every black person I have ever known who does not live in a metropolitan area, including the liberal ones.
Tl;Dr most leftists and liberals who fight for better outcomes for black Americans do not really know that many middle class black people closely and so sometimes fail to craft messaging as resonant to their material realities as the GOP does.
Source: have been dating the same black partner for 6 years, and their father is a successful Trump and Alex Jones loving rich guy.
As a person with a devout Catholic, conservative, Afro-Caribbean family, I literally have heard them espouse the whole “We’re better than those working-class black Americans because our culture is different!” line of thinking on multiple occasions.
I mean it is myopic but I get how it arises. If a suburban Afro-Carribbean lady goes downtown and is sexually harassed by some overfamiliar black dude with “no home training” it will color her perceptions of working class black Americans in the same way it would shape a suburban white person’s perception. And for black immigrants to America and suburban black Americans things like code switching, having non-stereotypically-black hobbies or fraternizing with white/non-black people extensively are not inaccessible or taboo things, so such people more easily navigate spaces where jobs and opportunities for wealth are more plentiful.
It’s myopic to pin all this on Black American “culture” of course because Black Americans are a people who have never had sovereignty or been the stewards of their collective destiny, and most of the “negative” behaviors blamed on “culture” are downstream from generations of targeted segregation/economic deprivation. But I do think if the white liberal/leftist response when say, there is a viral video of a group of black kids beating on a white kid is only silence, apologism, or tiptoeing, then the angry conservative response even while racially charged is sometimes actually closer to what middle class black Americans/Black immigrants actually want to say about such an event and it’s participants.
There needs to be a frank but forward moving vision involving some sort of direct reparations and mending the faults caused by historical race riots/redlining, to actually resolve key issues surrounding “Foundational Black American” neighborhoods.
One thing I can most certainly tell you is that, when my internalized racism was at its peak, being “not stereotypically black” played a role in it. I felt like both black people and white people were so focused on my race that they forgot that I’m an individual.
I’d get called an “Oreo” and that kind of shit for something as harmless as liking metal. I couldn’t just be a metalhead who happens to be black. Nah, that must raise eyebrows. Having gone through such massive amounts of internalized racism, I definitely know some aspects of where it can come from.
It took a major paradigm shift in how I was perceiving being black in America for me to overcome it. The stereotypes were just one aspect of why my internalized racism got so bad, and it wasn’t even the biggest reason.
I also saw posts by reactionary queer people (think /lgbt/ types) that reinforced the notion that POC are more likely to be queerphobic. This effectively led me to think, “If I’m queer and black, then black people are my enemy, and I should hate them.”
Nowadays, my thinking has certainly changed. It’s no longer “Black people are more homophobic, so I should hate my own race because I’m queer.” It’s more “White people will be racist to me, even the queer ones, and cishet people will be queerphobic to me, even the black ones.” It seemed as if I was pinning black homo/transphobia on race instead of just the fact that it’s black cishet people in particular being this way, just as white cishet people often do. However, I never got any shit or any kind of infighting from my fellow black queer people. Even beyond racism, forms of gatekeeping like transmedicalism and enbyphobia in the trans community are things I’ve only seen white trans people commit.
Definitely based for acknowledging that class seems to trump race in these circumstances, even if people don’t realize it. There seems to be a real lack of awareness of how all of this shit ties together in the grand scheme of things. Myopic, as you said.
Are you me or nah 🥺😭
deleted by creator
Just because you’re part of one group doesn’t mean you’ve extrapolated your experiences to the experiences of others. A lot of people are opposed to discrimination they personally are affected by, but are 10000% okay with similar shit happening to other demographics. A lot of gay men are misogynistic. A lot of white women are racist. A lot of black people are antisemitic. A lot of Asians are homophobic. And so on and so forth.
What zero intersectionality does to a MF.
And when you’re someone who is not white, straight, male, or cis, people having zero intersectionality will make you want to rip your hair out.
I may or may not be speaking from experience here.
deleted by creator
A variety of things fuel black antisemitism. NOI being one of them. There are the supremacist types that cope with racism by ignoring material reality and actual black history in favor of claims like black people built the great wall of china or were the first to invent [thing that was invented by rich white european]. Often times the conclusion is white colonizers erase the “true history”… with the jews dictating everything. Sometimes it’ll even circle from hating white people to praising Hitler lol.
The homophobia in a lot of POC culture may come conservatism that’s native to their culture, but it may also stem from being afraid that the discrimination the POC group is facing may lose attention to LGBT problems which they consider unimportant and white people problems, especially if their culture doesn’t have a strong presence or positive reception to LGBT people in the first place.
I’ll never forget the time a Japanese American conservative on Instagram told me that me being a black non-binary person is the product of me having a “”““white liberal friend group.””“”
I can attest to this. My family will constantly complain about racism and discrimination against Asian people, but the they’ll repeat the same discrimination against everyone else, including Asian people lol.
There’s also conservatives with gay children. While many go ballistic and denounce and abuse them, others rationalize this by thinking “well, my kid was raised by me, and I’m normal, so they’re normal too even if they’re not straight! I’m totally fine with them being gay. But as for the other gays….” For example, Ted Cruz has a bisexual daughter. Shortly after her suicide attempt, she went on social media to say her dad didn’t have anything to do with it and that they’re close. It could be PR, but I believe it. He doesn’t restrict her sexuality, but he also doesn’t bring attention to it and they’re rich enough to be protected in any case. Some conservatives have “spoken out” in defense when their children come out as gay or trans, but usually after the kid has been bullied and they see the first hand effects of their ideology.
He’s most likely petty bourgeois or a vet or something. If he has a white (female) partner and is living in a white majority neighborhood, then he’s definitely a certain type of Black person.
It’s not that unusual. Like, Black people aren’t a monolith who can recite Malcolm X or Kwame Ture speeches from memory. There are plenty of politically misinformed, self-interested, or mentally colonized individuals just like every other marginalized community.
it fucks me up when people don’t realize any individual human can be a fucked up dumbass and it’s a result of that persons agency combined with whatever constellation of events created their experiences.
deleted by creator
POC. “Colored person” is effectively a minor slur due to how it has been used historically.
I’ve heard people argue the whole “POC and colored person are the same because they sound similar!” thing, but it completely neglects the fact that whether a term is used derogatorily or not is more important for considering it a slur than just “how it sounds.” You’d seldom, if ever, hear people use POC as a slur, but colored person, like you said, has been used as such.
deleted by creator
Call people what they want to be called personally, but I’m not identifying all black anmericans and guessing who is and who is not a descendant of a slavery.
Personally this is why I say “colonized people” instead
deleted by creator
I prefer Egyptian or Arab. Don’t care for POC personally
deleted by creator