“I’ve never experienced it so you must just be imagining it” pretty much describes the conflict of every issue out there, from race to mental illness. Hell, even things like homelessness.
Most people I know lack empathy for things like this. Even people I’ve grown up with my whole life.
So that raises the question, is it something you’re inherently born with? As I don’t think I chose to be this way, but here we are. I find it interesting to think about.
Empathy is definitely a learned trait that develops slowly. Children generally start off treating life as if it has a preset plot and other people as sort of NPCs or characters in their life. Realising other people and even animals experience things at all should happen at some point. And realising their experiences are different again later. But it’s a complicated process and may even fail.
depends on your genetics and the environment of the womb, brains are pretty complicated and behaviour is affected a lot by that kind of stuff. there exist people who mostly or entirely lack empathy after being born and there are people who are ultraempathetic, and there’s a ton in between.
there’s also a difference between “cognitive empathy” (the ability to recognize others’ emotions) and “affective empathy” (how you emotionally respond to your perception of others’ emotions). something also associated with empathy is the ability to distinguish between yourself and others, i.e. how well you can put yourself in their shoes rather than think of their experience from your own perspective.
a lot of people suck at the last one, which is bad because even if you have positive affective empathy and can share others’ emotions, you still may not be able to really grasp how they feel and you’ll probably think that they’re overreacting or underreacting or reacting wrong because you can’t imagine yourself acting the same way if you experienced the same thing. many people are subconsciously sexist or racist because they see someone dealing with casual sexism and racism and think it’s not that bad, just brush it off, but they can’t relate at all because they don’t have the same set of life experiences and same psychology as other people. to them it’s “i wouldn’t react that way if someone did that to me, so you shouldn’t either”.
it’s usual for humans to have enough empathy to survive as a pack/society at least, but it’s also usual for humans to not have a mood disorder and it’s usual for humans to have 5 toes on each foot. in some “societies” like american capitalism, less affective empathy is usually advantageous with high cognitive empathy, and more affective empathy is usually a disadvantage, which is kind of the opposite trend in humans.
a lot of the times when it seems someone lacks empathy, they either don’t express their empathy in typical ways, or conditions (like culture) require them to silence it to be successful. but they could also just lack affective empathy, or have dissonant empathy (affective empathy entailing an opposite emotional response than what you would expect), both of which are typical anti-social and narcissistic traits.
Thank you for all this, it’s been very informative.
It does raise a few more questions, but it’s cool if you don’t have time to answer.
What kind of empathy would it be when one cries at films due to the story. Whether it be something bad happening to somebody or even tears of joy for their success.
How does one know if there empathy for someone else is from your own perspective vs trying to see it from someone else’s?
Like if I’ve never been homeless but i wholeheartedly can understand and see how one might end up there though choices, or even no fault of their own.
This is funny when it comes to minority groups in a larger one.
I remember telling someone passionate about his org that I’ve seen some homophobia/queerphobia and shit in the org, and he was like “Homophobia here??? We don’t tolerate that, it can’t be happening. I haven’t seen it”
Well, it’s not like they are calling you a f****t or some shit, you aint queer
being perennially excluded from parents group, kids activities, volunteering, coaching and other social connective activities because you’re a male parent and might accidentally sexually assault someone
losing multiple male friends to suicide, and seeing society handwave it away as being less important than any other form of death, despite its incidence being 10 times that of homicide
being objectified as inherently dangerous, simply for having a penis, and worse still understanding why
starting each day trying to be good, and do good, and that still never, ever being enough
That stuff sucks, and to add to your first point, I love hanging out with kids. They view the world in an interesting way that usually leads to funny out of context quotes about their parents.
But would I go up to even an acquaintances kid to talk? No. Since I’m a 199cm (🇲🇲6’6🇱🇷) hunk of man meat, I’d probably scare the kid and parent half to death.
The same goes for anyone, not just women. I don’t have the right to make anyone feel unsafe and if I am, then it’s my duty to walk away.
It’s not my fault, or yours. It’s just the way of things, and the only way we can fix it, is to respect everyone’s feelings. Unless they’re minimising your loss of someone, in which case fuck them.
why should anyone be thought of as scary by other simply because of how they were born, people shouldnt look at someone and assume they are gonna start killing people just because they are big or a man, that is wrong it is wrong to think that way and the people who do should change.
I mean the idea that if people perceive u as dangerous for no good reason they should act as if u were dangerous and thats just something u have to deal with is ridiculous, in any other context this line of reasoning would be considered obviously wrong if a white person acted as tho all black people were dangerous they would be rightly called racists and be expected to change their behavior so why should it be any different with men, why is it suddenly ok good even to uphold the patriarchy against men, this is ridiculous if people feel afraid of u for no reason u should challenge them on it and question it not just accept it as if it were normal.
It’s super ironic that you are the top comment in THIS thread.
Hi again, you assumed that I thought deep fakes worked off magicly making nudes and just didn’t understand the technology of aggregation as opposed to listening to the ways that women are being blackmailed and harassed by it. And that even if deepfake is exponentially faster and more accessible, it’s nothing new or different than drawing a picture of someone naked, even in the age of social media
Instead of actually listening you were arrogant, dismissive and hostile. You are the man in this comic. You are the person who is not harmed by deep fakes, so it’s not a real problem.
It’s been a while so idk if you remember, but as soon as I realized what you meant I immediately owned up to my mistake. This was from one of the last comments I made to you back then:
I’m not trying to be disingenuous, it genuinely sounded like you didn’t realize, that’s my bad.
I thought you meant something that you didn’t. The second I realized, I admitted that I was at fault. I fucked up there, and I’m sorry for that.
So yes, you apologized for assuming I didn’t understand what I was talking about, but you then double down ignoring the harassment I was bringing up. I’m not interested in discussing any part of this with you, we already have gone round and round. I was just shocked, amazed to read you today and had to highlight your lack of self awareness in saying
“I’ve never experienced it so you must just be imagining it”
Harassment of women with deepfakes has no impact or relevance, because hostility to women only has no impact or relevance to you.
I’m… a little confused. That comment of mine has nothing to do with my comment above or the post.
The post is about people’s ignorance, and their refusal to accept that there may be anything outside of their limited perspective.
I never said that your point wasn’t valid, or was made up. I simply didn’t agree with it, and had my own opinion. My last comment to you back then literally talked about the fact that I feel terrible for those negatively impacted by this, acknowledging that it’s a real thing that affects real people.
Someone acknowledging yet disagreeing with you isn’t the same at what’s in this post, and imo does it a massive disservice, as its about a lot more than that.
Here’s my comment for clarity:
Right now we live in a pretty puritan society, so the transitional phase is going to suck and people are going to be hurt. Obviously that’s awful, and none of this should take away from that fact, I feel horrible for the people negatively impacted by this.
And while that’s all true, it’s also true that as we continue going down this road we’ll reach a point where it simply won’t matter anymore.
The first part clearly addresses and acknowledges reality. I’m in no way dismissing it, pretending it doesn’t exist, or saying that “because I don’t experience it it isn’t real”. I fully acknowledge that it’s real and is a serious issue.
The second part is my own opinion in addition to it. It doesn’t take away from the first part, this isn’t a zero sum game, both can be true. I have my own opinion while fully acknowledging your own and seeing the validity of it.
“I’ve never experienced it so you must just be imagining it” pretty much describes the conflict of every issue out there, from race to mental illness. Hell, even things like homelessness.
There’s also the “I have suffered it and therefore everyone else must suffer it as well”
the two faces of an extremely punchable coin
exactly. empathy is the ability to realize other people have different experiences than you. to think about what it’s actaully like to be homeless.
but people think it means ‘just agree with me and make me feel good, and if i feel bad for people i am a good person’
Most people I know lack empathy for things like this. Even people I’ve grown up with my whole life.
So that raises the question, is it something you’re inherently born with? As I don’t think I chose to be this way, but here we are. I find it interesting to think about.
Empathy is definitely a learned trait that develops slowly. Children generally start off treating life as if it has a preset plot and other people as sort of NPCs or characters in their life. Realising other people and even animals experience things at all should happen at some point. And realising their experiences are different again later. But it’s a complicated process and may even fail.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/smart-parenting-smarter-kids/201905/how-children-develop-empathy looked pretty good from a quick search. Otherwise that’s just my memory from basic psychology classes.
Thanks for the response. I guess some people still think everybody else is an NPC into later life lol.
I’ll have a read of that link over the weekend so thanks for sharing.
getting beyond ape-brain requires a lot of learning and practice. like any skill.
depends on your genetics and the environment of the womb, brains are pretty complicated and behaviour is affected a lot by that kind of stuff. there exist people who mostly or entirely lack empathy after being born and there are people who are ultraempathetic, and there’s a ton in between.
there’s also a difference between “cognitive empathy” (the ability to recognize others’ emotions) and “affective empathy” (how you emotionally respond to your perception of others’ emotions). something also associated with empathy is the ability to distinguish between yourself and others, i.e. how well you can put yourself in their shoes rather than think of their experience from your own perspective.
a lot of people suck at the last one, which is bad because even if you have positive affective empathy and can share others’ emotions, you still may not be able to really grasp how they feel and you’ll probably think that they’re overreacting or underreacting or reacting wrong because you can’t imagine yourself acting the same way if you experienced the same thing. many people are subconsciously sexist or racist because they see someone dealing with casual sexism and racism and think it’s not that bad, just brush it off, but they can’t relate at all because they don’t have the same set of life experiences and same psychology as other people. to them it’s “i wouldn’t react that way if someone did that to me, so you shouldn’t either”.
it’s usual for humans to have enough empathy to survive as a pack/society at least, but it’s also usual for humans to not have a mood disorder and it’s usual for humans to have 5 toes on each foot. in some “societies” like american capitalism, less affective empathy is usually advantageous with high cognitive empathy, and more affective empathy is usually a disadvantage, which is kind of the opposite trend in humans.
a lot of the times when it seems someone lacks empathy, they either don’t express their empathy in typical ways, or conditions (like culture) require them to silence it to be successful. but they could also just lack affective empathy, or have dissonant empathy (affective empathy entailing an opposite emotional response than what you would expect), both of which are typical anti-social and narcissistic traits.
Thank you for all this, it’s been very informative.
It does raise a few more questions, but it’s cool if you don’t have time to answer.
What kind of empathy would it be when one cries at films due to the story. Whether it be something bad happening to somebody or even tears of joy for their success.
How does one know if there empathy for someone else is from your own perspective vs trying to see it from someone else’s?
Like if I’ve never been homeless but i wholeheartedly can understand and see how one might end up there though choices, or even no fault of their own.
The fact that there could be someone out there thinking, “I have 17 homes, so clearly they are imagining not having a home”, does not shock me
edit: grammar and my brains is a mix of spaghetti and mashed potatoes
It’s more like, “I own 17 homes and it wasn’t that hard to get that many. They must not be trying hard enough.”
This is funny when it comes to minority groups in a larger one.
I remember telling someone passionate about his org that I’ve seen some homophobia/queerphobia and shit in the org, and he was like “Homophobia here??? We don’t tolerate that, it can’t be happening. I haven’t seen it”
Well, it’s not like they are calling you a f****t or some shit, you aint queer
being perennially excluded from parents group, kids activities, volunteering, coaching and other social connective activities because you’re a male parent and might accidentally sexually assault someone
losing multiple male friends to suicide, and seeing society handwave it away as being less important than any other form of death, despite its incidence being 10 times that of homicide
being objectified as inherently dangerous, simply for having a penis, and worse still understanding why
starting each day trying to be good, and do good, and that still never, ever being enough
Why participate?
That stuff sucks, and to add to your first point, I love hanging out with kids. They view the world in an interesting way that usually leads to funny out of context quotes about their parents.
But would I go up to even an acquaintances kid to talk? No. Since I’m a 199cm (🇲🇲6’6🇱🇷) hunk of man meat, I’d probably scare the kid and parent half to death.
The same goes for anyone, not just women. I don’t have the right to make anyone feel unsafe and if I am, then it’s my duty to walk away.
It’s not my fault, or yours. It’s just the way of things, and the only way we can fix it, is to respect everyone’s feelings. Unless they’re minimising your loss of someone, in which case fuck them.
why should anyone be thought of as scary by other simply because of how they were born, people shouldnt look at someone and assume they are gonna start killing people just because they are big or a man, that is wrong it is wrong to think that way and the people who do should change.
I mean the idea that if people perceive u as dangerous for no good reason they should act as if u were dangerous and thats just something u have to deal with is ridiculous, in any other context this line of reasoning would be considered obviously wrong if a white person acted as tho all black people were dangerous they would be rightly called racists and be expected to change their behavior so why should it be any different with men, why is it suddenly ok good even to uphold the patriarchy against men, this is ridiculous if people feel afraid of u for no reason u should challenge them on it and question it not just accept it as if it were normal.
It’s super ironic that you are the top comment in THIS thread.
Hi again, you assumed that I thought deep fakes worked off magicly making nudes and just didn’t understand the technology of aggregation as opposed to listening to the ways that women are being blackmailed and harassed by it. And that even if deepfake is exponentially faster and more accessible, it’s nothing new or different than drawing a picture of someone naked, even in the age of social media
Instead of actually listening you were arrogant, dismissive and hostile. You are the man in this comic. You are the person who is not harmed by deep fakes, so it’s not a real problem.
It’s been a while so idk if you remember, but as soon as I realized what you meant I immediately owned up to my mistake. This was from one of the last comments I made to you back then:
I thought you meant something that you didn’t. The second I realized, I admitted that I was at fault. I fucked up there, and I’m sorry for that.
And the very next thing you said was…
So yes, you apologized for assuming I didn’t understand what I was talking about, but you then double down ignoring the harassment I was bringing up. I’m not interested in discussing any part of this with you, we already have gone round and round. I was just shocked, amazed to read you today and had to highlight your lack of self awareness in saying
Harassment of women with deepfakes has no impact or relevance, because hostility to women only has no impact or relevance to you.
I’m… a little confused. That comment of mine has nothing to do with my comment above or the post.
The post is about people’s ignorance, and their refusal to accept that there may be anything outside of their limited perspective.
I never said that your point wasn’t valid, or was made up. I simply didn’t agree with it, and had my own opinion. My last comment to you back then literally talked about the fact that I feel terrible for those negatively impacted by this, acknowledging that it’s a real thing that affects real people.
Someone acknowledging yet disagreeing with you isn’t the same at what’s in this post, and imo does it a massive disservice, as its about a lot more than that.
Here’s my comment for clarity:
The first part clearly addresses and acknowledges reality. I’m in no way dismissing it, pretending it doesn’t exist, or saying that “because I don’t experience it it isn’t real”. I fully acknowledge that it’s real and is a serious issue.
The second part is my own opinion in addition to it. It doesn’t take away from the first part, this isn’t a zero sum game, both can be true. I have my own opinion while fully acknowledging your own and seeing the validity of it.