We completely agree that it’s a difficult question, and a slippery slope. And also on the point of government’s role.
Do you them believe that privately run platforms shouldn’t have the right to choose what gets put on their platform? Or is it a matter of scale, like, Sxan’s GoToSocial server can do what it wants, but The-Platform-Formally-Known-As-Twitter shouldn’t?
I always think of the brigading that happens on “open” platforms. The Masses will effectively censor any real debate, but especially if they know there are no rules. How are we to deal with that?
So, I’ve left this on “unread” for so long only because until now I only used Lemmy on my phone, and I really hate typing long replies on my phone. I wanted to give your reply due consideration, though. Anyway, I’m embarassed to have taken this long to respond.
I agree with you about the public square, and I think you bring up an excellent point about these systems becoming “essential to society.” I think it’s a thing that is obvious to younger people, and almost completely invisible to older people. Even those of us who grew up during the IT boom decades and lived through the change may find it difficult to grok just how much of an impact this is having. I do think that people are generally well aware of how slow legislation is in adapting to rapid changes in society, but the impact you talk about has happened at such an accelerated rate, useful precedents are lacking. So we see legislators thrashing about more than usual, over or under-reacting, and mostly in extreme ignorance.
I see brigading in the fediverse as a worse problem than you do. It’s mob rule, and it is unchecked largely – I feel – as a result of hesitance by moderators to be accused of censorship. I haven’t yet seen much of what Reddit suffers from – moderator affinity, where mods have a heavier hand with posters they disagree with – but the result is unchecked herd mentality cowing dissenters.
But, maybe mob rule is good? I vacillate on this one. A well-functioning, healthy society has laws controlling gross topics, and social censure is used to moderate distructive elements. We don’t want a society where we have laws for every little infraction; in that society, every citizen is a criminal by default, and the government always has a legal justification to persecute everyone they want to (and let slip those they don’t). OTOH, we have what happened in the US in the 50’s, with mobs of white people harrassing black integration students. I don’t know what the right answer is for this, honestly, but it is an issue in meatspace, and it’s as much or more of an issue online.
Your litmus is good, I think, but risks being based largely on our current clueless government. As the generations age out, and younger generations take control, the government will become increasingly social-media savvy. I can easily see a future government having a communications department that is competent enough to hit nearl every social media platform, regardless of popularity. What about cross-posting? If we use that litmus, then if I were the government and wanted to control a platform, all I need to do is start posting to it and now it qualifies as subject to regulation?
I think I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat it: I don’t have answers to any of these issues. I wish we could have a censorship-free internet; there was a time in the early history when most users were well-behaved and followed established etiquette. I think a lot of that may have been due to the lack of anonymity, but whatever the reason, we’ve been past that for decades, and we haven’t yet adapted.
Okay; you’re making a distinction between “moderation” and “censorship” that I don’t understand. Does it go back to your litmus of an “important public space?”
Are you suggesting that there are no topics, no content, that should be censored? I’m not trying to walk you into Godwin’s law; I just don’t see how you address issues like CP, snuff porn, or hate/incentivizing speech. I personally would rather err on the conservative side of the Paradox of Tolerance, than allow intolerence to take hold and take over. With total and complete freedom of expression, how do you prevent the emergence of populist oppressive movements like the Khmer Rouge, or the Nazi party? Or do you think the Paradox of Tolerance is flawed?
But the governments prefer the current situation, as they have channels to ask for removal, but have zero liability and the company is covered, as they can do as they please, because its their private platform where they are allowing them. So I dont see why would the government declare social media as public squares…
Being able to criminally persecute someone requires knowing their identity. If this is the only approach, the real need to prevent anonymous internet usage will increase.
Not to mention, in most communities I choose to be part of, I trust the judgment of the admins and moderators far more than the state’s “justice” system.
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We completely agree that it’s a difficult question, and a slippery slope. And also on the point of government’s role.
Do you them believe that privately run platforms shouldn’t have the right to choose what gets put on their platform? Or is it a matter of scale, like, Sxan’s GoToSocial server can do what it wants, but The-Platform-Formally-Known-As-Twitter shouldn’t?
I always think of the brigading that happens on “open” platforms. The Masses will effectively censor any real debate, but especially if they know there are no rules. How are we to deal with that?
Removed by mod
So, I’ve left this on “unread” for so long only because until now I only used Lemmy on my phone, and I really hate typing long replies on my phone. I wanted to give your reply due consideration, though. Anyway, I’m embarassed to have taken this long to respond.
I agree with you about the public square, and I think you bring up an excellent point about these systems becoming “essential to society.” I think it’s a thing that is obvious to younger people, and almost completely invisible to older people. Even those of us who grew up during the IT boom decades and lived through the change may find it difficult to grok just how much of an impact this is having. I do think that people are generally well aware of how slow legislation is in adapting to rapid changes in society, but the impact you talk about has happened at such an accelerated rate, useful precedents are lacking. So we see legislators thrashing about more than usual, over or under-reacting, and mostly in extreme ignorance.
I see brigading in the fediverse as a worse problem than you do. It’s mob rule, and it is unchecked largely – I feel – as a result of hesitance by moderators to be accused of censorship. I haven’t yet seen much of what Reddit suffers from – moderator affinity, where mods have a heavier hand with posters they disagree with – but the result is unchecked herd mentality cowing dissenters.
But, maybe mob rule is good? I vacillate on this one. A well-functioning, healthy society has laws controlling gross topics, and social censure is used to moderate distructive elements. We don’t want a society where we have laws for every little infraction; in that society, every citizen is a criminal by default, and the government always has a legal justification to persecute everyone they want to (and let slip those they don’t). OTOH, we have what happened in the US in the 50’s, with mobs of white people harrassing black integration students. I don’t know what the right answer is for this, honestly, but it is an issue in meatspace, and it’s as much or more of an issue online.
Your litmus is good, I think, but risks being based largely on our current clueless government. As the generations age out, and younger generations take control, the government will become increasingly social-media savvy. I can easily see a future government having a communications department that is competent enough to hit nearl every social media platform, regardless of popularity. What about cross-posting? If we use that litmus, then if I were the government and wanted to control a platform, all I need to do is start posting to it and now it qualifies as subject to regulation?
I think I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat it: I don’t have answers to any of these issues. I wish we could have a censorship-free internet; there was a time in the early history when most users were well-behaved and followed established etiquette. I think a lot of that may have been due to the lack of anonymity, but whatever the reason, we’ve been past that for decades, and we haven’t yet adapted.
Removed by mod
Okay; you’re making a distinction between “moderation” and “censorship” that I don’t understand. Does it go back to your litmus of an “important public space?”
Removed by mod
Are you suggesting that there are no topics, no content, that should be censored? I’m not trying to walk you into Godwin’s law; I just don’t see how you address issues like CP, snuff porn, or hate/incentivizing speech. I personally would rather err on the conservative side of the Paradox of Tolerance, than allow intolerence to take hold and take over. With total and complete freedom of expression, how do you prevent the emergence of populist oppressive movements like the Khmer Rouge, or the Nazi party? Or do you think the Paradox of Tolerance is flawed?
Removed by mod
But the governments prefer the current situation, as they have channels to ask for removal, but have zero liability and the company is covered, as they can do as they please, because its their private platform where they are allowing them. So I dont see why would the government declare social media as public squares…
What’s bothering me is all the editing of old books and remaking movies to fit current political views
Being able to criminally persecute someone requires knowing their identity. If this is the only approach, the real need to prevent anonymous internet usage will increase.
Not to mention, in most communities I choose to be part of, I trust the judgment of the admins and moderators far more than the state’s “justice” system.