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This is at the root of the paradox of tolerance. If you tolerate intolerance, eventually intolerance dominates.
Robert Anton Wilson wrote about Big Truths and Little Truths. Similarly, we can talk about Little Censorship and Big Censorship. I don’t know what those definitions are, but I’m sure that it’s not just a matter of scale, because the Paradox of Tolerance applies at all scales. I think the difference lies between in what’s being censored, things that promote intolerance. And then there are things outside of intolerance that most of us agree should be squashed – child porn, hate speech, incenting to crimes against individuals, doxxing. But it’s a fine line, and you could argue that it’s better to not censor, and just make the the sharing a crime.
Personally, I don’t have clear definitions around this stuff, but I do think the Paradox of Tolerance is a real thing that’s been demonstrated countless times, and which should be heeded.
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We completely agree that it’s a difficult question, and a slippery slope. And also on the point of government’s role.
Do you them believe that privately run platforms shouldn’t have the right to choose what gets put on their platform? Or is it a matter of scale, like, Sxan’s GoToSocial server can do what it wants, but The-Platform-Formally-Known-As-Twitter shouldn’t?
I always think of the brigading that happens on “open” platforms. The Masses will effectively censor any real debate, but especially if they know there are no rules. How are we to deal with that?
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But the governments prefer the current situation, as they have channels to ask for removal, but have zero liability and the company is covered, as they can do as they please, because its their private platform where they are allowing them. So I dont see why would the government declare social media as public squares…
So, I’ve left this on “unread” for so long only because until now I only used Lemmy on my phone, and I really hate typing long replies on my phone. I wanted to give your reply due consideration, though. Anyway, I’m embarassed to have taken this long to respond.
I agree with you about the public square, and I think you bring up an excellent point about these systems becoming “essential to society.” I think it’s a thing that is obvious to younger people, and almost completely invisible to older people. Even those of us who grew up during the IT boom decades and lived through the change may find it difficult to grok just how much of an impact this is having. I do think that people are generally well aware of how slow legislation is in adapting to rapid changes in society, but the impact you talk about has happened at such an accelerated rate, useful precedents are lacking. So we see legislators thrashing about more than usual, over or under-reacting, and mostly in extreme ignorance.
I see brigading in the fediverse as a worse problem than you do. It’s mob rule, and it is unchecked largely – I feel – as a result of hesitance by moderators to be accused of censorship. I haven’t yet seen much of what Reddit suffers from – moderator affinity, where mods have a heavier hand with posters they disagree with – but the result is unchecked herd mentality cowing dissenters.
But, maybe mob rule is good? I vacillate on this one. A well-functioning, healthy society has laws controlling gross topics, and social censure is used to moderate distructive elements. We don’t want a society where we have laws for every little infraction; in that society, every citizen is a criminal by default, and the government always has a legal justification to persecute everyone they want to (and let slip those they don’t). OTOH, we have what happened in the US in the 50’s, with mobs of white people harrassing black integration students. I don’t know what the right answer is for this, honestly, but it is an issue in meatspace, and it’s as much or more of an issue online.
Your litmus is good, I think, but risks being based largely on our current clueless government. As the generations age out, and younger generations take control, the government will become increasingly social-media savvy. I can easily see a future government having a communications department that is competent enough to hit nearl every social media platform, regardless of popularity. What about cross-posting? If we use that litmus, then if I were the government and wanted to control a platform, all I need to do is start posting to it and now it qualifies as subject to regulation?
I think I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat it: I don’t have answers to any of these issues. I wish we could have a censorship-free internet; there was a time in the early history when most users were well-behaved and followed established etiquette. I think a lot of that may have been due to the lack of anonymity, but whatever the reason, we’ve been past that for decades, and we haven’t yet adapted.
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Okay; you’re making a distinction between “moderation” and “censorship” that I don’t understand. Does it go back to your litmus of an “important public space?”
Being able to criminally persecute someone requires knowing their identity. If this is the only approach, the real need to prevent anonymous internet usage will increase.
Not to mention, in most communities I choose to be part of, I trust the judgment of the admins and moderators far more than the state’s “justice” system.
What’s bothering me is all the editing of old books and remaking movies to fit current political views
As well as small/large, I think there’s a difference between legal/effective/practical censorship.
With legal censorship but not practical, I can tell my friends things, maybe pay anonymously, but at risk of legal prosecution and worrying about my ethics as a law-abiding citizen.
Media bias (for example) gives effective censorship for many, but if I care enough I can even start my own media and promote it as best as I can - and some people can be reached.
To some extent I think the three can balance each other out: for instance I wouldn’t want anti-vaccination rhetoric to be the main thing people hear, but I do want freedom and opportunity for people to question scientific and medical consensus.
Personally I think social media is a fantastic tool and also a problem - but not a good place for a solution: so I tend not to worry about social media ‘censorship’. Maybe I’m just out of touch!
To me it is blocking expression that presents no plausible harm to anyone. Yelling fire in a crowd to start a panic, making a specific threat, and intentionally spreading lies as to defame all strike me as harmful language and should be curtailed somehow. All expression of any kind not plausibly causing harm should be allowed and equal in the market of ideas despite my personal opinion of them which is a bitter pill to swallow when neonazis appear all to common. The is my opinion.
The first time it happens, at step one.
a governmental body. private entities, whether that be people or organizations, are not bound to the concepts of censorship like a governing body with real power over the people are.
at what point does censorship became censorship
When you can’t ask at what point censorship becomes censorship without consequences.
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Censorship is censorship
I’d say if you are unfairly depriving someone of an audience that would have wanted to listen to you.
Individually blocking someone you don’t personally want to hear from obviously isn’t censorship.
But if you have a monopoly on a platform and block everyone who would be interested in listening to someone, just because of your personal preferences, that is censorship.
But if virtually no one wants to listen to something and you block it, I would argue that’s not censorship. E.g. no one should has to listen to spam or look at porn.
Of course those lines are blurry, but so is all of moral judgement.
It’s more clear cut if you ‘unrightfully’ ban someone from YouTube, since it’s a monopoly. Banning someone from lemmy.world who would have had an audience there is trickier, since ideally this would eventually lead to them and their audience moving to an instance where they are welcome.
That’s why you would want your government to protect speech, since it is the biggest and most powerful monopoly. But in my opinion the same should extend to any large institution, like social media.
And I’m talking about censorship as a moral judgement free term, since I would argue there is some good censorship. E.g. banning CSM. I don’t think it makes sense to call it anything other than it is.
I find all the rewriting of books and remaking of movies and tv shows I used to watched as a kind because they are inclusive enough to be strange. I knowing it is not a government effort. but why is the public trying to the kids now that if they do not have a culturally diverse friend group it is something wrong. we are trying to achieve equality not make race or gender something people do not think about. sorry i know this is a bit off topic but it is I want to talk about.
