- live in an impenetrable fortress from which they launch raids on the innocent, never suffering the consequences of the evil they commit
- ā ruled by the most cruel and decadent amongst them, but donāt do anything about it because they dream of being on top of the horrific pyramid of torture and pain one day
- ā innately cruel and horrific society where seeing others suffer is the only source of pleasure
- slavers
- violence is the only language they understand
- sense of racial superiority
- ā entire sectors of society dedicated to coming up with evil and sadistic weaponry with which to commit war crimes
- hopelessly addicted to drugs of all kinds
- complete lack of compassion
- ā piracy
- ā love to torture
Definitely more healthy than worshipping eldritch evil nightmares from the warp or nazi golden corpse or outright ban which cause trillions of humans to be lobotomised and live centuries of nightmarish suffering.
Laying down your life to protect essential piece of machinery or cultural heritage is not that much irrational, even communists did that a lot in letās say WW2 or other wars.
What is ātrueā afterlife?
I donāt, Tau donāt use true AI, they seem to be wary too but their wariness stem more from the cautiosness than fear (though i believe they will reach true AI eventually and probably soon) i more thought about Men of Iron.
What is your source that Ironkyn are different from Iron Men? Also Ironkyn looks just like Men of Iron with some variations.
Yes there is no philosophical difference whatsoever between Ironkyn and some chaos AI /s. Btw chaos donāt really make their own AI, they just put a daemon inside the machine, so i would say neverborn count as AI even less that they count as live beings.
Finally, i donāt adhere to the popular US sci-fi trope that AI need to be bad. It is, ultimately, a human creation. When raised by comrades in communism, it will likely become a comrade. If raised by the US military, it will cause untold suffering.
Come on thatās in bad faith and you know it. I explicitly didnāt say that, I only commented on the health of their respective approaches to AI not the health of their cultures in general, I even made a point to mention the gods and daemons that replace the cores as objects of worship in Chaos cultures
Thatās a fair rebuttal if there is a chance of recovery or successful defence of the core
In 40k souls are real, a true afterlife is one where that lives on and not just a chatbot imitating someoneās personality no matter how accurate. A craftworlderās soulstone being put into an infinity circuit or a chaos worshipper being elevated to daemonhood are examples of ātrueā afterlives in the setting
The following article(donāt be thrown off by the ācommunityā in the URL these articles are written by GW staff and are canon)
https://web.archive.org/web/20250808181850/https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/hj7fodsl/lore-of-the-ironkin-are-these-robotic-citizens-truly-regarded-as-equals/
āThough designed to fulfill certain roles at the Votannās behest ā such as the mighty Steeljacks, born with larger and stronger frames ā these designations are not set in stone, and the Ironkin may gravitate towards a different calling as their knowledge and experiences grow. Nevertheless, their programmed nature means they are not able to truly experience their own emotions and drives, so it is a rare Ironkin that shows ambition or a desire to command.ā
And the UR-025 short story Man of Iron which features him spontaneously emotionally reacting to events, I donāt have it to hand to find a better excerpt but hereās a post with some examples https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fj4pmd/short_story_excerpt_man_of_iron_ur025_disposes_of/
"It targeted the Kastelan first. Pinpoint hits stove in the bigger robotās metal vision plate and shattered the sensorium behind. It staggered back two steps, sparks flashing all over its armoured shell, before recovering. Though blinded, the Kastelan returned fire. Bullets flaring with phosphor burn smacked into UR-025ās shoulder, spoiling its aim. This irritated the older machine. It switched targets to the slave robotās elbows and shoulder mount, shattered them all so that its guns hung uselessly. Ranged weapons disabled, the Kastelan lumbered towards UR-205, head down to batter the older robot into submission. UR-025 stepped aside, smashing the larger machineās knee with its power claw. The Kastelan could have taken a blow like that easily, but on the unsafe walkway it was fatally upset and stumbled sideways. Its huge mass snapped the guardrails with a pair of sharp metallic twangs, and it fell with a mighty splash into the water and was swallowed up without trace.
'Threat eliminated,ā said UR-025 with relish."
There are also parts with his internal monologue which make this clearer
Despite being outwardly aesthetically similar, the ability to experience emotion or lack thereof makes Ironkyn and Men of Iron very different from each other
Thatās not true, Chaos specifically the Dark Mechanicum and Iron Warriors make use of true AI and also sometimes combine it with demonic possession in a single machine, but they(AI and Daemons) are distinct, if you think Iām wrong on this point say so and Iāll find some excerpts that support my position
Neither do I, and I donāt think anything Iāve said indicates the opposite, this was discussion about AI in the fictional setting of 40k not irl, but I also think that putting humanās under the direct control of AI with no human oversight could be bad i.e. using AI for central economic planning could be hugely beneficial but if there is no human oversight to decisions it makes it could possibly lead to bad paperclip-maximiser scenarios but thatās a entirely different discussion about irl AI guardrails and safety which is beyond the scope of this argument
No itās not in bad faith and you know it, worshipping (and you also know itās not the same kind of worship that imperials and chaos do) benevolent ancestors is not the same as worshipping the fuckers from warp.
Eldar soul do seem to very much resemble being uploaded to core. Also when the soulstones are getting shattered they seems to go to their after-afterlife, which is admittedly short since they are being devoured by Slaanesh. Who know, maybe Kyn souls are really being uploaded to the machine, some old human tech is really able to do it too, like the Proteus Protocol.
Seems like conjecture, but ok. I would assume Kyn would notice their Ironkyn borthers are just a clankers in the few thousand years, but apparently not.
Pretty anectotal evidence, maybe he developed feelings after at least 10000 years heās been functioning? I can recall the chaos-corrupted Iron Men at Menazoid Epislon, they did seems completely mindless but if it was to either corruption or being newborn/stored right after production or both, idk.
Again, maybe itās a function of time. Also i donāt recall UR-025 showing much āambition or a desire to commandā too, so maybe he also was ānot able to truly experience their own emotions and drivesā
I can recall three specifical true AI used by/allied with chaos forces: Kaban Engine, Castigator Titan and Tabula Myriad but neither of them was created by Chaos and only Castigator was possessed by a daemon. I can concede to the Dark Mechanicum since i donāt know that much about their creations, Iron Warriors use tons of corrupted engines but they are afaik at most on the level of posessed machine spirits and battle automata, not true AI.
Agree for IRL, my point was that it did worked for Votann in-universe, since they are doing less bad than other human/abhuman factions that donāt use AI. Future might still prove it was a mistake, but itās not exactly look like roses for everyone else and there was certainly less suffering along the way.
When did say it was? my point is that the LoVs worshipping AI is unhealthy, even if that āworshipā is to a lesser extent than the Imperium/Chaosās, or the coreās are perhaps materially more ābenevolentā to their worshippers, not that Chaos or the Imperiumās relation to their own deities isnāt also unhealthy
Chaos and other factions can have a healthier relation to AI that the LoV do, even if their relation to the whatever their non-AI deities are is even unhealthier, has been my point
Apart from the major distinction that in the 40k setting āsoulsā do exist which have an immaterial ineffable quality that canāt be transferred from one vessel to another through simple copying of a connectome, soulstones transfer this soul from a biological being to a semi-inorganic infinity circuit, Ancestor coreās donāt do something similar they copy brains rather than transfer souls
Possibly but thatās complete speculation not even vaguely hinted at in even outdated canon
āambition or a desire to commandā arenāt the only emotions, If you want me to find some excerpts of his internal monologue say so, itāll take a while but not too long if youāre adamant about me being wrong on this point. UR-025ās internal monologue and the neutral third-person narrator describe his emotions as spontaneously occurring, rather than a deterministic response like those from a Ironkyn which even when simulating an emotion rather than cold pure logic is deterministic and non-spontaneous
As for the Proteus Protocol it ability to transfer spiritual consciousness in only rumoured from a couple of unreliable narrators in a couple of codexes/rulebooks and isnāt even hinted to be related to the Votannās uploading tech(other than many Votann/Imperium technologies being based on the same STCs, it isnāt confirmed), if it was fully explored in lore with a novel and was explicitly shown to transfer souls and connected to the LOVs uploading tech then Iād change my tune
The LoV splitting of from the bulk of humanity and been interacting with the cores for a similar if not longer amount of time, the initial what would become Squat colonisation compilations of STCs/cores happened before the rebellion of the men of iron. And possibly before even their creation(if the theories about Men of Stone being the Votann are true), if any Ironkyn havenāt survived that long or havenāt developed ārealā emotions that supports by point about there being an essential difference between Ironkyn and Men of Iron
I never said that Chaos were the first to discover Abominable Intelligence(however some among the humans(not the first race to do so) that would later become DM members) rather that they make use of fully sentient AI but it is not the ruler/deity of their faction
And the Tāauās approach is working for them(an arguably Chaosās is as well as their faction as grown in power since the AdMech forbid research on AI and other technologies causing half of the Mechanicum to join Horus), that doesnāt mean either approach to AI is better or intrinsically morally correct or healthier than the other
Itās still more healthy especially if you consider this isnāt happening in the void, as consequences of chaos dealing with AI is mass murder and consequense of Imperium total ban on AI is servitorisation which is one of the worst horrors in entire 40k.
Soul in 40k seems to function as (potential) connection to the warp and itās not even consistent, souls of Kyn are supposedly āweakā as are Tau souls but if we goes by this logic Necrontyr would have even weaker because they didnāt had psykers at all, yet Cātan felt it tasty enough to go to a great lenght to eat them. Same is with Slaanesh lusting after drukhari souls as much as the other Eldar, while they genetically engineered what is effectively āsoulā from their race.
Proteus Protocol transfer of soul is confirmed in Eisenhorn novels, Pontius Glaw retains his after using it. If you talk about Kyn, you seem to be very sure that āspeculationā isnāt true despite parallels existing.
My point is that LoV avoided Men of Iron rebellion, which would point to two facts - their relationships with MoI were more healthy and that Ironkyn are Men of Iron, just most possibly as much changed from the basic version as Kyn themselves are changed from basic humanity.
This was not my point, i pointed to chaos not having need to create true AI at all.
Half of Mechanicum didnāt joined Horus because AI ban, again there was one AI on Mars then and barely anyone even know about it.
If you donāt see that Votann and Ironkyn are better than mass servitorisation or putting demons in things in order to kill more people then we truly donāt have anything to talk about, so please disengage if thatās the case.
I agree about the imperium, Iāve said that chaosā is arguable but one of the ultimate products of the Ironkyn existence is also mass murder; they are (on the whole labour units also exist)soldiers/killing machines, but that at least the Tāau relationship to AI is healthier even when taking into consideration the wider effects that approach has on the culture
How does the relative strength of souls relate to the AI conversation? a soul is a soul weak or not
Ah didnāt know that, if you could post an excerpt thatād be great but Iā do your word for it, but yes parallels do not make me think the same soul transference is true for LoV uploading especially since the protocol isnāt from an STC which is where most of the shared Kin/Imperium tech comes from, and it is likely but not confirmed that the LoV uploading tech came from an STC schematic already included in the cores
For ātheir relationships with MoI were more healthyā more than whoās specifically did you mean here?
I disagree with the āthat Ironkyn are Men of Ironā conclusion you make, the fact that they didnāt fight during the MoI rebellion doesnāt prove they are the same, Ironkyn attacking baseline human during the rebellion might be, and their isolation can explain not being involved on that conflict. I believe the theories that the Votann are the Men of Stone more likely
For ājust most possibly as much changed from the basic version as Kyn themselves are changed from basic humanity.ā thatās a pedantic argument it can be argued both ways if Abhumans are humans or not, on one hand they are objectively different, or that on the other they same as one because one is the origin of the other
They have as much need as other factions to use it; to create weapons
I didnāt say it was the sole reason rather that it(the ban on AI research) along with other reasons like the other bans such as on warp tech and on innovation in general were the trason and Kel-Helbor and his faction joining Horus
Again I never said its worse, youāre conflating the very isolated point about the healthiness of relationship to AI with the greater cultures and its affect on them. to succinctly restate my point I think that the LoV worship of Ai is less healthy than the Tāauās utilisation of AI
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