the FOSS scene in india is quite big. i think it usually doesn’t make much sense to differentiate experiences on country: you wouldn’t do that when the country would be netherland or germany, i guesss. Only in india, it matters.
different exmaple: when some male person from india publishes for instance an article about tech things in FOSS (for instance a new feature they have been working on) it wouldn’t make much sense to highlight the country, it would be only natural to think this person as part of the FOSS scene. why is this case different?
when people describe a bad experience, it is usually very helpful to show symphathy with their bad experience. For instance if a person hurts their foot, it is only natural to wish they get better soon. It makes feel people better. However, if you respond with “don’t complain that much, it surely isn’t hurting that much.” other people won’t describe similar problems because they remember your response and fear to receive a similar response when posting their experience.
that is “Solidarity”.
women are underrepresented in FOSS and tech in general. so when they experience bad stuff, it leaves a bad impression seeing that nothing has strucutrally changed.
Please note that my comments were mostly reactions to @Brattea@lemmy.ml, not to the woman in the blog post. They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react. I know now, I fell for it again. I responded to online bait.
On your point:
However, if you respond with “don’t complain that much, it surely isn’t hurting that much.”
Oh for Jack’s sake! That is absolutely not what anybody you (and Brattea) are arguing with were actually writing! Fallacies are fun I guess. :(
women are underrepresented in FOSS and tech in general. so when they experience bad stuff, it leaves a bad impression seeing that nothing has structurally changed.
As said before, in many places in the world this is all woven into far more complex problems, whereof the solution is probably also far more complex.
As PoVoq already stated, some of us are getting tired of the “oh those FOSS nerds have no social skills and treat women badly” stories. They are marginalising folk and are no actual solution to anything.
Please note that my comments were mostly reactions to @Brattea@lemmy.ml, not to the woman in the blog post.
ah thanks.
They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react. I know now, I fell for it again. I responded to online bait.
Yes. and i reacted to you to show that @Brattea@lemmy.ml, is not alone, to show solidarity. Non-constructive answers (for instance trolling, shitposting, making puns of things, saying people like things.) are also very common comments and my impression is that you don’t care about regular non-constructive comments but only about Brattea’s complaint of the lack of solidarity.
Oh for Jack’s sake! That is absolutely not what anybody you (and Brattea) are arguing with were actually writing! Fallacies are fun I guess. :(
well true, but it is a very common reaction.
As said before, in many places in the world this is all woven into far more complex problems, whereof the solution is probably also far more complex.
that is also true.
They are marginalising folk and are no actual solution to anything.
the actual solution would be to read many books how patriarchy works in modern societies. which i do regularly - altough i am not experiencing sexual harassment/sexism and read about patriarchy because i want to show solidarity and avoid common pitfalls in dealing with sexual harassment and sexism.
if we had a constructive and thoughtful conversation in FOSS about sexism and structrucal patriarchy, i woulnd’t complain, but we don’t have that.
let’s assume this article would get viral with many upvotes and many people showing solidarity and such things. male people in india would also see that and because of the attention this topic gets it would create a big discussion in the foss scene in india (it is simplified, stuff usually doesn’t work that simple, but still it forces people to think about it).
so that means: the high number of downvotes decrease the likelyhood the patriarchy in india crumbles. And yes it wouldnt’ be destroyed either way, because it is a slow process to destroy patriarchy - but still the discussion is important.
when you actually want to destroy patriarchy, showing solidarity when people complain about patriarchy is the most basic thing you can do to help.
He doesn’t want to show solidarity with women though. It’s about his feelings. He is entitled to be seen as virtuous without doing anything! It’s the reason he responded to me in the way that he did. Please do not over look the condescending nature of his comments and reply guying behavior. I tried gently to explain it but all I got were nit picks.
Another issue with men in FOSS is tone policing. Look at how entitled he felt to tell me how I had to respond how this woman had to title it for her to be credible.
They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react.
And here it is again. I was thoughtful and constructive until I was talked to like someone who didn’t know anything. I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DOWNVOTES. I complained about the men who were so sensitive they cannot take any notion that they might be responsible. They downvote her post (edit) not (edit) because they dislike it, it’s about overpowering her perspective. It’s about speaking over her. It’s about isolating the issue to India so they cannot be held accountable
Notice how when a woman makes a point “complaining” is the way it’s described. No one stopped to see I was making a point.
Any man who understands this knows not to downvote. They know not to put down women speaking up. They know how to read and listen and try not to repeat the behavior that perpetuates the abuse in her life. They read that and think “have i done any of this”, “have I acted in a way which enables anything she has described?”. And then they become better men overtime.
And the other thing here is watch I’m gonna call it out before it happens I will be framed as rude or argumentative because I dared to speak the truth about how women are treated by shitty men.
the FOSS scene in india is quite big. i think it usually doesn’t make much sense to differentiate experiences on country: you wouldn’t do that when the country would be netherland or germany, i guesss. Only in india, it matters.
Because we know that India is considered quite patriarchal. And if you followed the news in more recent years they have quite a reputation. So when the medium post lined by OP (you) is mostly about men from patriarchal societies misbehaving, it is quite disingenuous (is that a word, I am not sure) to say it is the fault of FOSS. The Netherlands, Germany etc. do not have the reputation India does, nor have I heard their FOSS communities are hostile to women. So once more, it is silly to blame FOSS (communities) globally for something of which:
the severity (or even existance) greatly varies across the world.
where it exists, is probably influenced heavily by other factors than (wo)men in a computer club
different exmaple: when some male person from india publishes for instance an article about tech things in FOSS (for instance a new feature they have been working on) it wouldn’t make much sense to highlight the country, it would be only natural to think this person as part of the FOSS scene. why is this case different?
well i agree that india has a reputation being quite patriarchical, but reputation is misleading: also germany has patriarchical structures but has no wide pubilc reputation for that. it is surely different in intensity, but still in germany 1/3 of women experience sexual violence in their live. as structural problems are always different in every country, it doesn’t make much sense to highlight those of india.
i mean, i probably wouldn’t complain if you used a different wording and showed solidirarity with the author, while linking to for instance an queerfeminst blog entry describing how the patriarchical strucutres in india makes the live of queerfeminist (and also men who do are not considered to be manly) worse.
i wouldn’t say much when you would show interest in fixing those issues, for instance also by explaining that you are part of awareness teams of conferences where people can show up when they experience any sort of harassment. i wouldn’t say much when i could trust you having a deep understanding of awareness related work.
what i don’t understand: FOSS has big conferences where people around the world join together. it could happen that a women from US visists a debconf or something in india, and also a women from anywhere visists a conference where male, patriarchic people from india attend. For both people this post would be very interesting and it leaves a bad impression that you downvoted (probably).
THIS 100% AS A QUEER WOMAN I WOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND EVEN VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED FOR PARTICIPATING IN FOSS THE SAME WAY A MAN WOULD! THANK YOU!
the FOSS scene in india is quite big. i think it usually doesn’t make much sense to differentiate experiences on country: you wouldn’t do that when the country would be netherland or germany, i guesss. Only in india, it matters.
different exmaple: when some male person from india publishes for instance an article about tech things in FOSS (for instance a new feature they have been working on) it wouldn’t make much sense to highlight the country, it would be only natural to think this person as part of the FOSS scene. why is this case different?
another point:
when people describe a bad experience, it is usually very helpful to show symphathy with their bad experience. For instance if a person hurts their foot, it is only natural to wish they get better soon. It makes feel people better. However, if you respond with “don’t complain that much, it surely isn’t hurting that much.” other people won’t describe similar problems because they remember your response and fear to receive a similar response when posting their experience.
that is “Solidarity”.
women are underrepresented in FOSS and tech in general. so when they experience bad stuff, it leaves a bad impression seeing that nothing has strucutrally changed.
Please note that my comments were mostly reactions to @Brattea@lemmy.ml, not to the woman in the blog post. They (Brattea, not the blogger) were complaining about downvotes, and that stuff is so non-constructive and childish I had to react. I know now, I fell for it again. I responded to online bait.
On your point:
Oh for Jack’s sake! That is absolutely not what anybody you (and Brattea) are arguing with were actually writing! Fallacies are fun I guess. :(
As said before, in many places in the world this is all woven into far more complex problems, whereof the solution is probably also far more complex.
As PoVoq already stated, some of us are getting tired of the “oh those FOSS nerds have no social skills and treat women badly” stories. They are marginalising folk and are no actual solution to anything.
ah thanks.
Yes. and i reacted to you to show that @Brattea@lemmy.ml, is not alone, to show solidarity. Non-constructive answers (for instance trolling, shitposting, making puns of things, saying people like things.) are also very common comments and my impression is that you don’t care about regular non-constructive comments but only about Brattea’s complaint of the lack of solidarity.
well true, but it is a very common reaction.
that is also true.
the actual solution would be to read many books how patriarchy works in modern societies. which i do regularly - altough i am not experiencing sexual harassment/sexism and read about patriarchy because i want to show solidarity and avoid common pitfalls in dealing with sexual harassment and sexism.
if we had a constructive and thoughtful conversation in FOSS about sexism and structrucal patriarchy, i woulnd’t complain, but we don’t have that.
also notice:
let’s assume this article would get viral with many upvotes and many people showing solidarity and such things. male people in india would also see that and because of the attention this topic gets it would create a big discussion in the foss scene in india (it is simplified, stuff usually doesn’t work that simple, but still it forces people to think about it).
so that means: the high number of downvotes decrease the likelyhood the patriarchy in india crumbles. And yes it wouldnt’ be destroyed either way, because it is a slow process to destroy patriarchy - but still the discussion is important.
when you actually want to destroy patriarchy, showing solidarity when people complain about patriarchy is the most basic thing you can do to help.
thanks. :)
He doesn’t want to show solidarity with women though. It’s about his feelings. He is entitled to be seen as virtuous without doing anything! It’s the reason he responded to me in the way that he did. Please do not over look the condescending nature of his comments and reply guying behavior. I tried gently to explain it but all I got were nit picks.
Another issue with men in FOSS is tone policing. Look at how entitled he felt to tell me how I had to respond how this woman had to title it for her to be credible.
And here it is again. I was thoughtful and constructive until I was talked to like someone who didn’t know anything. I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DOWNVOTES. I complained about the men who were so sensitive they cannot take any notion that they might be responsible. They downvote her post (edit) not (edit) because they dislike it, it’s about overpowering her perspective. It’s about speaking over her. It’s about isolating the issue to India so they cannot be held accountable
Notice how when a woman makes a point “complaining” is the way it’s described. No one stopped to see I was making a point.
Any man who understands this knows not to downvote. They know not to put down women speaking up. They know how to read and listen and try not to repeat the behavior that perpetuates the abuse in her life. They read that and think “have i done any of this”, “have I acted in a way which enables anything she has described?”. And then they become better men overtime.
And the other thing here is watch I’m gonna call it out before it happens I will be framed as rude or argumentative because I dared to speak the truth about how women are treated by shitty men.
Because we know that India is considered quite patriarchal. And if you followed the news in more recent years they have quite a reputation. So when the medium post lined by OP (you) is mostly about men from patriarchal societies misbehaving, it is quite disingenuous (is that a word, I am not sure) to say it is the fault of FOSS. The Netherlands, Germany etc. do not have the reputation India does, nor have I heard their FOSS communities are hostile to women. So once more, it is silly to blame FOSS (communities) globally for something of which:
You are shifting the goal post mate.
well i agree that india has a reputation being quite patriarchical, but reputation is misleading: also germany has patriarchical structures but has no wide pubilc reputation for that. it is surely different in intensity, but still in germany 1/3 of women experience sexual violence in their live. as structural problems are always different in every country, it doesn’t make much sense to highlight those of india.
i mean, i probably wouldn’t complain if you used a different wording and showed solidirarity with the author, while linking to for instance an queerfeminst blog entry describing how the patriarchical strucutres in india makes the live of queerfeminist (and also men who do are not considered to be manly) worse.
i wouldn’t say much when you would show interest in fixing those issues, for instance also by explaining that you are part of awareness teams of conferences where people can show up when they experience any sort of harassment. i wouldn’t say much when i could trust you having a deep understanding of awareness related work.
what i don’t understand: FOSS has big conferences where people around the world join together. it could happen that a women from US visists a debconf or something in india, and also a women from anywhere visists a conference where male, patriarchic people from india attend. For both people this post would be very interesting and it leaves a bad impression that you downvoted (probably).
THIS 100% AS A QUEER WOMAN I WOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND EVEN VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED FOR PARTICIPATING IN FOSS THE SAME WAY A MAN WOULD! THANK YOU!