This is not true. Placing race above class is liberalism.

You lack reading comprehension. At no point did I say race is above class. In fact, I explicitly said that class is enforced via race. Literally, race is a mechanism by which class warfare is prosecuted. The idea that you can solve class first and then racism completely misunderstands the role race plays in society.

I am incorporating an understanding of ethnic relations and the necessities of minority workers into my analysis, to promote this any further would place identity or race above class relations which again is liberalism.

Reducing racism to ethnic relations and minority needs it to completely ignore racism entirely. If this is the entirety of your understanding and commitment, you are incapable of establishing a sustainable revolutionary movement. You fail to understand the difference between race and ethnicity, the difference between racism and ethnic relations, and the difference between the needs of minority workers and the oppression of the global majority.

One cannot be a settler when one has not settled or currently maintains the relations of settlerism.

Let’s take that as a given. The existence of municipalities in all former and current European colonies is literally the maintenance of setterism. The consumption of fresh water extracted from indigenous lands in the maintenance of settlerism. The consumption of petroleum to fuel your vehicles so you can get to work is the maintenance of settlerism. Working in factories that rely on extraction of natural resources from unceded territory from indigenous nations is the maintenance of settlerism.

This is because after the Civil War, slave relations were abolished and the economy evolved to worker-owner relations under bourgeois democracy. I have already explained this, I’m unsure what you’ve missed on this.

What I missed is your level of ignorance. Slave relations were NOT abolished. First of all, slave relations were maintained through indentured servitude, through sharecropping, through prison slavery, and through indigenous boarding schools. Second, under Jim Crow and under much of the current legal regime, black workers were used explicitly to appease white workers, by assigning to black workers the most abusive and lowest paying jobs so that white workers wouldn’t revolt. This still continues to this day, where the historically marginalized both in the US and around the globe are sacrificed to the machine of capitalism in order to appease the white worker. Reversing this course would immediately through white workers into revolt and the fascist populists have been repeating the propaganda that the problem is black and brown bodies harming the economy, and a large portion of the North Atlantic believe this to be the case. Reversing this course will cause immediate violent reaction of white people against brown people, because melanated people working shit jobs and dying early is literally part of the system that reproduces the lives of the white labor aristocracy.

We are saying the same things however you misunderstand “racial revolution”, this would be a fascist revolution.

Calling national liberation of black and brown peoples “fascism” is the most reactionary take I’ve seen from someone who considers themselves a communist. This is usually a position I see from white supremacists. You are woefully on the wrong side of history, comrade.

“The way that production was developed was through racism” No, you have it reversed. Superstructure (such as apartheid or other racist laws) serves to reinforce the base (economic relation to the means of production). The system creates racists, racists did not create a racist system.

Perhaps you don’t understand what racism is. The System of Racism created racist people. The System of Racism was created by the bourgeoisie to implement class warfare and extraction of surplus value. The entire system of production in the US was built on the backs of slaves. Without slaves, the system of production would have been different. Without Racism, slavery would be untenable. Racism and Slavery and Production INTERPERMEATE. You cannot abolish capitalism and then demand racial reckoning take a back seat on the theory that eventually racism will go away. In order to abolish capitalism you must ALSO abolish the System of Racism, and when black and indigenous MLs write about this, that means national self-determination inline with Lenin’s theory.

Back in slavery times, the mode of production was crafted to serve the needs of humanity. A hierarchy was crafted and so were “lessers”. This became racist the same way imperialism does - one values their herd, their family, their nation over those of whom they do not share an intimate relation with.

Jesus christ. No. Stop. Racism is not about familial ties. It’s not an individual problem. You are the liberal here. You think racism is what people feel in their hearts. Racism is literally a legal system whereby throwing black people off a ship in the middle of the Atlantic was not considered murder but was instead considered destruction of property! Literally! Argued in court that legally black people aren’t people and therefore cannot be murdered! It has nothing to do with individual beliefs about people being lesser. It has everything to do with a system of extraction that reifies profit extraction from the bodies of workers to the degree that it literally consumes the bodies of the workers. The only way it could get to this level was to create a system that ensured one part of the working class would not be consumed and another part of the working class would, so race is enshrined in law and then rationalized through the university system. It has nothing to do with people valuing their family over others.

“White” people were not born racist, the material conditions following the dialectic process of development created the idea of racism as well as created racists.

RACISM CREATED RACISTS

We are Marxists, we are not liberals. We promote and select leaders based on merit, not based on their identity or racial terms.

This is so insultingly dismissive. I’m not talking about selecting a leader, I’m talking about theory. It is impossible to establish a sustainable communist society within a settler colony where the entirety of that colony is predicated on the continued oppression, genocide, rape, pillage, and extraction from subjugated peoples. Lenin’s theory on this is quite well supported. National self-direction is critical to the establishment of sustainable communism. And that means indigenous and black national self-determination on Turtle Island, free from the dominance by the settler colonial state that rules them.

This is because socialism itself is a system which promotes and is made of merit

Yo, what the fuck? You think socialism is a meritocracy? Ok, now I know you’re a lost cause.

Of course we must incorporate the needs of minority workers

They’re not minority workers. They literally constitute the global majority. White Europeans are the global minority. So long as you keep thinking that white people are the majority, you are going to continue to have incorrect understand of the world and how it works and therefore will be incapable of formulating correct theory.

however this should be done as it was in the Soviet Union, through ethnic councils whose membership consistency and purpose is to address the needs of minority workers

What are you talking about? This is the least of what the USSR did. They established completely autonomous nation-states for national populations and gave them autonomy over their nation and established the constitutional right for them to secede at any time without penalty. You completely skip over the national question entirely with your liberal understanding of racism. You don’t even seem to understand the difference between race and ethnicity.

Of course all laws must be made with consideration to the needs of minority workers as well, my issue is with the idea of appointing someone based on their ethnicity, sex, gender, etc… and not on their merit.

This is the most white European thing I’ve heard on Lemmy.

And you really must drop the term “racial revolution”, it implies a revolution based solely on race alone, of which you clearly do not aim for.

I don’t think you understand what revolution is. Revolution means a replacement of existing power structures. There absolutely must be a racial revolution. There cannot be a socialist revolution without a racial revolution. They must be the same thing, and that means that the leaders of that ONE revolution must not consist entirely of white European men attempting to maintain the integrity of their settler colonial state on the premise that eventually everyone will be assimilated into it without oppression. Assimilation into white settler states is genocide.

…You have critiqued yourself while referring to me, you do realize this don’t you?

Oh god. No, comrade, I am not critiquing myself. You are simply trapped in your false beliefs and that is preventing you from understanding the point. The superstructure itself manifests racism, not the base. The national borders, the municipalities, the system of courts, the rights to water, the rights to land use, the treaties, the allocation of resources, there are all superstructural and they all manifest racism. To abolish race requires the abolition of this superstructure, and that means entire cities become unlivable immediately. It means displacing millions of settlers. It means giving sovereignty to nations that have been denied sovereignty by that very state. We’re not talking about meeting the needs of racialized groups, we’re talking about abolish race.

I believe we’ve found the root cause of our disagreement. Show me the laws or actions which treating “black” Americans worse than they treat “whites” makes a net positive for “whites”.

Seriously? Go read about water rights. Go read about land distribution. Go read about national parks. Go read about adoption laws. Go read about red lining. Go read anything even remotely rigorous about reparations. I mean, it’s all around you. You’re swimming in it. White people live in places explicitly because they were stolen by white people from melanated people. White people rely on international subjugation to ensure the flow of cheap goods. The US and Europe have no ability to supply themselves with necessary goods anymore, they rely entirely on subjugating labor internationally. They rely entirely on white ownership of resources that exist in the homes of non-white people, both domestically and abroad. The very concept of the Grand Canyon National Park is “we had to get rid of all these indigenous people so you could enjoy this park”. The drought in Lake Mead and Lake Powell are requiring EVERYONE who is party to the water rights treaty to reduce consumption by 15%. But those lakes represents theft of water from indigenous communities that were displaced entirely and subjugated, and the resulting concentration camps where they live today barely use any water and their portion is already vanishingly small, by treaty, but now because white people water their lawns, indigenous people have to go without more water.

It’s literally happening every single day thousands of times a day that the superstructure of white society is inextricably interlaced with racial oppression. Go fix your ignorance.

they simply treat “black” Americans worse however we are all living in hell as workers (and not labor aristocrats).

This is what we refer to as White Fragility. You refuse to see how you play the role of an oppressor in society while you simultaneously refuse to even listen or read works from those people who have been organizing against oppression for over a century.

They are more oppressed however this does not mean that “white” workers are not oppressed

We’re not playing oppression olympics. We’re engaging in theory. The white working class is exploited. They are also enlisted by the bourgeoisie into supporting the exploitation of racialized peoples. The ruling class has organized society for 600 years to align the interests of white workers against the interests of racialized workers. They have done through numerous institutions, one of the largest being - settler colonialism, wherein the reproduction of white worker society is predicated on the continued oppression of racialized peoples.

They are more oppressed however this does not mean that “white” workers are not oppressed, this is exactly what the democratic party emphasizes, that only minorities in America are oppressed and not workers. This is IDPOL. This is liberalism selling us minority supremacy, another product to profit from (check all of the blm gear and rainbow merch floating around).

The fact that you think I’m espousing this line, after multiple engagements with you, means you have a blindspot that prevents you from seeing the actual arguments at play here. You are arguing with ghosts in your own head.

however some of the specific details are still being viewed through a liberal framework.

You haven’t even managed to approach my argument, you have no standing to levy this critique. You haven’t bothered to read anything that would disagree with you. Your position is one of ignorance, reductionism, and deliberate and willful dismissal of the actual work of the oppressed, including revolutionary MLs who have written extensively on this.