One of the things that sets Lemmy, and the collective fediverse apart from other platforms is its community. Recently, there’s been a large influx of new users (myself included; thus I apologize if this is not the right location for this post). A toxic trait associated with other platforms is the incorrect use of the downvote. Historically, this function was used to hide comments that detracted from the conversation; however, next to no one uses it as intended, and it’s primarily used as a I disagree with you button.
I don’t think we’ll ever change how the downvote is used now - it’s current use is too entrenched. Instead, I suggest that rather than just downvoting and moving on with something you disagree with, that users expand on why they disagree with the post or comment. Not only does this generate more content, but it also can take the conversation into new areas and offer new perspectives that the OP had not considered. You might even actually change a mind or two by doing so, thus bringing people around to see your side of the coin. Commenting (with civility) on stuff you don’t agree with is beneficial on all fronts. It promotes discussion, and it offers new perspectives. It also minimizes the likelihood of echo chambers forming. That last bit is what I’ve come to value here the most. Other sites are just massive echo chambers where there’s a rote response or opinion. This creates a stale environment for users, and deters people from commenting. Why comment, when you know what the answer will be, or that you’ll be jumped on at the first word of disagreement with the entrenched opinion?
But what if I don’t have time to comment to support my downvote? Simple - don’t downvote unless the item you’re downvoting truly detracts from the conversation (as per the functions original intent).
I realize this is a bit of a rant/ramble, but I think by actively putting more effort into our comments and downvotes, we can make lemmy an even richer community than it already is.
Thanks for taking the time to read,
- Shovel
While I agree with the idea of everyone getting the opportunity to be heard and form an opinion, I disagree with your rationale.
relevance to a conversation is a subjective and decided on the fly depending upon how much you know about a subject you or how well you understood what someone was saying.
How someone communicates is defined even more subjectively with more unique flare, accents, lingo, etc which can further obfuscate intended meaning.
Etc etc. idk why we’re trying to categorize and make point systems for fucking everything. I would much rather have a comment section with a sort by controversial button to see where the most “debate” is going on rather than trying to prioritize one comment over another. The bulk of the post is the information, the comments are for communication and discussion and shouldn’t be taken as factual or anything other than subjective anyway.
While I agree with the idea of everyone getting the opportunity to be heard and form an opinion, I disagree with your rationale.
See, Lemmy, we can do it! this guy did it right here!
idk why we’re trying to categorize and make point systems for fucking everything.
honestly. Yay internet capitalism? Humanity must be sum zero.
I believe this approach to be vulnerable to Sea Lions since “debating” facts with someone not tethered to, or respecting of reality is a lesson in futility since the time/effort wasted is the goal.
sea lions
That’s an amazing analogy. I love it.
In these cases, I give them the benefit of the doubt and try to provide a rational argument why I disagree with them. It either sparks a discussion/debate or they’re obviously trolling and I downvote and move on. But some people that seem like trolls are really just ignorant and showing them why you disagree can help them shape their opinion.
Another thing to note is that downvotes are, in effect, public. One hopes that this will have a chilling effect upon individuals and groups who have been gaming the karma/visibility system over on reddit for years.
The other thing that I appreciate about this community, is that it effectively doesn’t really track karma/visibility. Yeah, my comment got 300 upvotes - what a rush. I can’t ‘build’ an entire identity online because of how many upvotes I’ve got though.
Downvotes used to be public on reddit, too. They changed that, and further “fuzzied” the visible total vote count, because reporting those numbers perfectly accurately and publicly made it easier for astroturfers and spammers to game the system. They were able to see the effects of their sneaky efforts, which helped them identify what worked and what didn’t, which then allowed them to know which sockpuppet accounts were shadowbanned in some way.
Thanks for sharing this! As a new lemmy user I did not know this. The page you linked to says any admin in the federated universe has access to this information. What’s to stop someone from making their own server to get access to this information?
If you’re able to follow instructions then you can set up a server. For the purposes of this conversation then, as things stand, anybody is allowed to set up a server and then an instance and then see that data.
I didn’t find it very hard to change how I downvoted comments. Of course what counts as contributing to a conversation is subjective, but I don’t think that should stop people from using it to decide whether to upvote or downvote. I downvote low effort comments, inflammatory comments, rude comments, and comments that spiral into tangents about unrelated topics. I upvote comments using my own judgement to encourage healthy discussions where people contribute differing ideas. I may not agree with every comment I upvote.
You know those discussions that go further down, so get less and less votes because ppl don’t read the whole damn thing, until they become a back and forth between two people? Remember how many of those end on a single post with 0 upvotes. I hate those. I hate when the Downvote is only used to express “I have nothing to say, but I vaguely disagree”-downvotes.
I don’t think that this is the correct way to address this problem. While I agree that downvotes shouldn’t be used indiscriminately, simply urging people to use it in another form isn’t going to do much. If people were better, the world would be better. The problem is that people aren’t better, and so we have the problems at hand.
I don’t know, I think a systemic approach to problems is usually a better way to a solution. Just to give a quick idea, which might be a bad one at that, I think that Lemmy could, by default (with the option to toggle the option), ask the user to give their opinion whenever they downvote. It’s simple and small, but could be the push that people need to actually engage in conversation rather than lazily pressing good and bad buttons. I’m not sure it would work, but I think it’s a step ahead of simply yelling to people “Be better!” and expecting things to change. Just my two cents, though.
Yeah, I think that would be a good way to start. It may exacerbate flamewars, however.
Another commentator mentioned that this used to be built into slash dot. Downvoters were given a default list to choose from (with option to expand upon) why they were downvoting.
In the meantime, my shitty little plea to the fediverse is all I got; a mouse fart trying to shift the path of a cultural hurricane
Removed by mod
One thing that helps here is that I can see exactly how many upvotes and how many downvotes a post/comment has, instead of an aggregated amount. It adds a level of responsibility, I think?
Also if you don’t like it, there are instances like Beehaw that don’t even allow downvotes.
Solar punk is experimenting with their return, or at least considering it. I don’t have much of an opinion, provided that context is provided, or at least they are used as originally intended.
Downvoting is fine if you disagree but not just for the sake of it.
On that other post about downvoting yesterday, I was told it is specifically NOT fine to downvote if one disagrees. Which is precisely how I’m used to using it.
I disagree with that interpretation, but, y’know, I didn’t downvote it. Because - ?
Disagree with me if you want but I think we should be referred to as Motorheads.
How the hell do I upvote you more? That’s an amazing perspective.
I will just downvote and move on with things that I don’t really want to see in a community like low effort posts. Also, if there is already a good response on why some post is wrong I will just add votes since adding my own reply doesn’t add much.
Be a better lemming and realise this is the fediverse and not just lemmy. Why so specific when it is relevant to all users of the fediverse?
Downvoting is a trait specific to Lemmy servers, and not pressnt Mastodon and other Fediverse services with “reacts” (a sad emoji would still count as a “like” on score-based ActivityPub servers)… That appears to be the main focus of this post.
Of course, be a nice member of the internet community is something that should be said across the Fediverse regardless of platform.
Counterpoint: a lot of people on Reddit complain about “you’re just downvoting because you disagree with me” when they’re being downvoted for spreading misinformation, being unnecessarily hostile or condescending or holier-than-thou, posting blatant dogwhistles, or sealioning.
I’d rather see people in general take a step back and stop taking downvotes so personally. You will get downvoted sometimes. It’s not always an ideological attack.
I think downvoting to say “I disagree with this is valid in certain cases,” like when u/spez says some stupid shit. Or when bigotry pops up, I don’t want to engage with racism or bring more viewers to it. I want to downvote and move on.
Edit; should be “I disagree with this” is valid in certain cases, …
Agreed. I only downvote if the comment is truly offensive, purposely unhelpful, or an obvious troll. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, old habits are hard to change. Everyone will have different opinions, and communities are a means of expressing them. As a whole, I believe the fediverse is trying to foster healthier conversations than other social media platforms which often encourage toxicity.
Thank you for bringing this subject matter to light.for my own mental well-being, I turned off scores in the Lemmy desktop settings (go to your settings and un-check the Show Scores option)
the platform is so much more enjoyable when I don’t see post/comment numbers, just the content
the first mobile app to implement this feature will get my premium purchase
