I had no idea this issue had been identified. While I find this tool very useful, the project is seeming rather questionable to me now.
What does BLOB stand for?
They even made a movie about it!
Binary Large OBject
Binary Large OBject
Only kind of. That’s a backronym.
I haven’t read to far into this but the issue is completely devoid of contributors and maintainers. I find the wording of the issue quite concerning:
Due to the recent XZ-Utils drama I checked the code and I’m appalled. There are more BLOBS than source code. https://github.com/ventoy/Ventoy/tree/3f65f0ef03e4aebcd14f233ca808a4f894657802/cryptsetup https://github.com/ventoy/Ventoy/tree/3f65f0ef03e4aebcd14f233ca808a4f894657802/Unix/ventoy_unix https://github.com/ventoy/Ventoy/tree/3f65f0ef03e4aebcd14f233ca808a4f894657802/DMSETUP
There is no reason to have those not be build in the release process. Of course it’s convenient, they are prebuild, it’s fast and nobody has a problem with it.
Recent events however showed that these BLOBs can contain everything and nothing. The build instructions would not produce the exact same executable for everyone. It’s better to have GitHub build it on-push and use them out of the build cache.
I would do it myself, but unfortunately I’m not familiar enough with the Ventoy build process to actually do it. I understand that removing BLOBs isn’t a priority over new and shiny features. But due to recent events, this should be rethought.
Thank you for reading this and I hope for a productive conversation
This is free software, they don’t owe you anything and this kind of language sounds angry and entitled. You can’t just Gordon Ramsay on someone else’s codebase.
Actually you can and should Gordon Ramsey all over it. It is the duty of audience members to express how they feel honestly about the artwork.
Open Source can and do understand that and open source software becomes better for it.
I’m not saying don’t criticise it. It’s about communication. The language isn’t very good. See my other comments
I cannot fathom what in this issue description gives rise to your concern. It’s worded very calmly, clearly explaining why the author thinks these BLOBs shouldn’t be there, expressing an understanding that it’s not a top priority and even closing with a thank you.
Is this not rude:
I checked the code and I’m appalled. There are more BLOBs than source code
And this:
I understand that removing BLOBs isn’t a priority over new and shiny features. But due to recent events, this should be rethought.
We didn’t like it when MS made an issue trying to direct ffmpeg
They should have opened with a complement or asked for directions if they didn’t know. In this message “Thank You” means fuck all
I mean, people are allowed to have opinions. They may not be good opinions but thats the glory of opinions. You can Gordon Ramsey someone’s codebase, and someone else can Gordon Ramsey their comment, as you just did.
I didn’t say they’re wrong it’s the way they communicated which I found off-putting and Gordon Ramsay -esque
I mean the author has simply ignored this issue. If you look into it there are a few that people simply do not know how to generate, so without the maintainer it’s impossible to make a PR solving this.
I mean if I got an issue that sounded that entitled and this is something I do in my spare time, I’d probably ignore it.
My point is they could have worded it better and it might have gotten a response. If you ask kindly about the BLOBs and maybe for some help to push you in the right direction instead of saying “I don’t know”, then it is fair to call the maintainer rude for ignoring it completely.
Anyone who wants to fix this can help fix it, but people are just making demands of an unpaid maintainer. The devs can run this project the way they want to. If you don’t like it, don’t use Ventoy.
The people comparing this to the xz exploit are out of line. xz was a library that was deeply embedded in a lot of software. Ventoy is an IT tool used to boot live OSes. Not even remotely the same attack surface.
Blobs in the source tree are not ideal, but people need to pick their battles.
If you don’t like it,
don’t usefork Ventoy.From what others have said: The blobs violate GPL because they are taken from other FOSS project but the changes Ventoy makes are not viewable.
As a wise one once said: “Talk is cheap, send patches”
Little did they know that Patches the Cat bit through their LAN lines and actually increased the cost of their communication.
I was bored at work one day. I decided to put a nyan cat easter egg in my company’s app. If at the loading progress bar screen you typed NYAN it would turn the progress bar into a rainbow being created by a little nyan cat while playing the nyan cat song. The mp3 (inconspicuously renamed without the extension) doubled our build size. No one batted an eye cause no one paid attention to the build size much.
Fast forward 5 years later, at a different job, I get a phone call from the old boss. Do you happen to know anything about this nyan cat file we found?
I had no idea what he was talking about.
Years and years ago I worked on a project where the logo was the outline of a head and an inward swirl for the brain.
For the website, if you held your mouse over it for 9 seconds, it would spin and flush. No one ever found that one that I know of.
Should’ve included that in your FE analytics.
Aaaand thats why all commits should be signed with your pgp key
It sounds like they weren’t using any form of version control, so that’s definitely on them at this point
What makes you say that? To me, it sounds like that’s what they do have cause they tracked the change back to him. The commit message obviously said nothing about the file.
Ah I could see that. I took it as them not knowing where the file came from at all, so they’re just asking all the devs who would have had access at that point, which is why it was “hey do you know anything about this file?” and not “is there a specific reason you committed this file to the build?”
You think they’d call up devs who left them just to ask if they happen to know about a random file?
You think they’d call up devs who left them just to ask if they happen to know about a random file?
I mean, that’s what op said happened. Literally with the verbiage of “file we found” and not “file you committed”
I did mean random devs, not the dev they tracked down that made the change.
10/10
That story was a journey.
Glad it’s getting a little more light. Been trying to tell people this for a few years now lol. It’s the reason I’ve stayed away from it since first learning of the tool and looking at the “source code”.
I too wish the developer would respond, but I don’t think this is the catastrophe people are making it out to be. One comment seems to explain why these binaries are included:
Because ventoy supports shim, and by extension secure boot, these files needs to come from a signed Linux distro. In this case they are taken from Fedora releases, and OpenSUSE apparently, as they publish shim binaries and grub binaries signed by their certificate.
If the hashes match the files from the Fedora or OpenSUSE releases, then does this really matter?
It matters because nobody is going to check the hashes for all of the files match whenever there’s a change so the maintainer can just replace them with whatever he wants.
that’s what automation is for - nobody is going to manually check them, but anyone is able to automatically set something up to check their hashes in change… the fact that it’s possible that anyone is doing that now that it’s a known issue perhaps makes it less problematic as an attack vector
That is true, but also nobody is doing it. Just like nobody is verifying Signal’s “reproducible builds”.
are you sure?
there could be thousands just waiting for a failure to come out and say “HEY THIS IS DODGY”
Yea because I tested it myself. Nobody else seems to care, and if they did, I would think there would be a public way to see regular test results regardless.
I know this exists for some projects, but somehow nothing privacy-sensitive
Is that any different from no one checking the code every update?
The amount of malware you can cram in a source-code patch without drawing attention vs. in a binary is vastly different.
There’s also the fact that if you want to ship binaries, you can just wget them from source during the build process. Not a perfect solution but much better than what’s ventoy doing. The source code updates works the same in every project because it has to. That’s why this is drawing more attention.
That’s ok if we are talking about malware publicly shown in the published source code… but there’s also the possibility of a private source-code patch with malware that it’s secretly being applied when building the binaries for distribution. Having clean source code in the repo is not a guarantee that the source code is the same that was used to produce the binaries.
This is why it’s important for builds to be reproducible, any third party should be able to build their own binary from clean source code and be able to obtain the exact same binary with the same hash. If the hashes match, then you have a proof of the binary being clean. You have this same problem with every single binary distribution, even the ones that don’t include pre-compiled binaries in their repo.
The problem is not near enough projects support reproducible builds, and many that do aren’t being regularly verified, at least publicly.
On the contrary: that just goes to show what a fucking catastrophe for software freedom “Secure[sic] Boot” is.
While this is true, it only requires the shim and grub to be copied for another distro.
From other comments there are a lot more blobs than just these two.
It sounds like most, if not all, come from upstream projects.
Would be nice if the dev can respond and confirm that…
It sounds to me as a documentation issue, as the next comment says, simply including a
wgetscript should solve this.
Wtf is ventoy and why is nobody explaining it
Wtf is a BLOB and why is nobody explaining it
Binary Large OBject
Basically any binary file, often objected to in open source repos because of the lack of source and ‘openness’. See also the recent xz backdoor.
Binary data. In the case of lz it was a carefully “corrupted” archive.
Because you can look it up.
Basically an OS which let’s you choose another OS to boot into. This way you can chose between multiple OS’s on one USB drive. You drag your ISO files into a USB folder and choose between them on boot.
That sounded like grub until you said ISO file
Yeah basically grub but on a USB stick and with ISO files
So like rEFInd but on the same drive?
because search engines exist
Wtf is search engines and why is no one explaining it
Search engines are websites that people used to go to in order to get helpful information. These days, they just spam out a bunch of SEO garbage, AI-generated bullshit, and ads.
Google, probably
shh…it’s a spyware and adware!
Hey guys open source is great you can look at all the code and therefore there are no security backdoors etc. Also here are a bunch of pre-compiled blobs in the repo, don’t worry about those, but they are required to run the program.
The fact that people know there are pre-compiled blobs in open source means they have an informed reason to avoid the software!
Right, the fact that it’s open is the reason this came to light, and we’re having this discussion
Makes me wonder how far the closest alternative, glim, could be upgraded to match Ventoy given the confines of GRUB.
Someone had mentioned that Fedora fails to verify when booting from Ventoy. Now I’m thinking if I could dd the media loaded via Ventoy and compare with an original copy to see what changed.
Time for a fork, then?
I like multiboot. Used it back when I used Windows.
The Ventoy advertisements on Reddit looked too suspicious, so I never checked it out.Thank you for sharing this. I remember using Ventoy quite often back when I was still on Windows. I’ll be sticking with the good old
ddcommand.Good ol’ disk destroyer
I love double d
Any alternatives to this tool? I’ve used it a lot lately because I was testing out live OSes before installing one to the hard drive, but otherwise I don’t need it on a daily basis.
but otherwise I don’t need it on a daily basis.
I’ll be real, this is part of why I didn’t understand Ventoy. I keep a bunch of large, fast thumbdrives around blank and available. When I need/want to put an OS on there, I do it when I need it, and then I’m always installing the most current version of the install. It takes under 5 minutes, at best.
I used to try to keep various installs on thumbdrives… but it would be two years down the line by the time I needed to use it again and by that time it’s literally pointless to be using two year old installation media.
Part of the point behind Ventoy is that you don’t need to prepare the USB to be bootable. You can just copy/paste the whole iso into Ventoy and it will be bootable. New release comes out? Just copy it onto your USB drive. Don’t even need to remove the old version of you don’t want to.
Makes things much easier in the tech world for having a single USB with 50+ bootable tools and installers on there like with MediCat (which uses Ventoy as a base).
Only thing I’ve had issues with booting from Ventoy is the ProxMox install iso. Everything else has worked first try.
Ventoy wasn’t a foolproof solution but it really did beat the hell out of using 6 different USB drives. Most USB “pen drives” don’t make labeling easy and without labeling I’m just plugging them in one by one till I find the one I want.
I remember various different concepts of USB flash drives with integrated LCDs that would display a label and the remaining capacity. Then they vanished and the only thing left were the Lexar Echo drives. Until a few years ago, when they have been pulled from the markets. Probably, because they didn’t work with the now default GPT and its many different partition types.
IODD makes some. I had the older HDD version that stopped working after it got dropped, so now I use this one:
https://www.iodd.shop/IODD-SSD-drive-with-mini-USB-30-with-secure-256-bit-encryption
The IODD is basically a small drive enclosure, not a “stupid” USB drive.
I was more thinking of devices like this, this or this. Which have the simplicity of a normal USB device (just plug it in and go) and come with an automatically updating label so you can find the correct dongle.
But yeah, nowadays, I’d probably prefer the IODD thing.
I use this thing all the time. It will serve up ISOs and VMDK images also. It’s quite fast
As someone with few USBs available, Ventoy takes me 2 minutes to flash, several minutes to copy a set of ISOs, and then any time I need it, it takes 0 minutes to have a working USB with some arbitrary ISO. Sure, it’s not up to date, but I don’t need it to be if I need to recover an install or use some random tool.
When I was working in IT, this would have been a very useful tool for doing some on-site troubleshooting with various tools or for one-off reimaging machines that were missed during a big update or something. Instead, I had a bag of USB sticks with labels on them, which was annoying to use and to maintain.
I guess, you could buy a handful of USB sticks…
Need to compare hashes between a stock ISO and one
flashedbooted by Ventoy (dd the latter to a file and check)Wat? Ventoy doesn’t flash isos, it boots from them
Thanks edited
