This stupid country just lets people fucking die and get disabled everyday. I’m sick of it. My tax dollars just go to killing and dismembering people abroad. Fuck fuck fuck.

  • glans [it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
    37·
    2 months ago

    they give it to pets. it’s the same vaccine. the costs of getting through regulation for humans was too much and not worthwhile.

    people who think vaccines are a money making plot needs to get get their heads screwed back on. so many vaccines held back because of being insufficiently profitable.

    • casskaydee [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
      12·
      2 months ago

      people who think vaccines are a money making plot needs to get get their heads screwed back on. so many vaccines held back because of being insufficiently profitable.

      Doesn’t that necessarily mean that the ones that aren’t held back are profitable?

      • glans [it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
        14·
        2 months ago

        Meh. Not much. None of the companies really want to do it anymore. Vaccine development is just not compatible with capitalism. Remember that even mass vaccination campaigns are generally only 1-5 lifetime doses. Behind every newly-scheduled vaccines (something that happens every 5-10 years) there are 1000s of research avenues that went nowhere, or nowhere lucrative. They cost to develop, test, deploy etc. And the benefit is dispersed, in the future, and not obvious to individuals. A quintessential collective good; must be done at scale.

        Look into the Ebola vaccine: it was 90% ready to go for a decade and almost ended up in the same situation as the Lyme vaccine: abandoned because no pharmaceutical business (or military) was willing to pay for the costs of the final approval processes. There is FINALLY a malaria vaccine.

        If vaccines were developed as ambitiously as they could be imagine what we could have them for: acne, UTIs, ear infections, common cold, STIs, cold sores, h pylori, MRSA, c diff, parasites, a real TB vaccines, HepC, HIV etc. And that is just thinking about life here in chilly first world nations. Last few years have seen an uptick of finally approved vaccines for tropical diseases like chikungunya and dengue fever which is great.

        none of that shit will be profitable

      • JusticeEnglish
        8·
        2 months ago

        Yes, you are correct.

        But all of this is just an argument for government researchers designing vaccines, testing them, etc. and the government owning all the patents and such. And I’d go a step further and wish the US government would then publish their findings, results, etc. freely and publicly and encourage all other nations to do the same. The US gov could hold the patents within the US for one discovered here (to prevent private corps from trying to gobble them up) but allow anyone worldwide to manufacture vaccines freely. Like with covid so many people suffered and died because Moderna, et al. desperately just HAD to make maximum profits. As a corporation, that’s what they do. And when people started discussing forcing them to make the patent public, Bill Gates shit his diapers and everyone stopped talking about it (it was non serious to begin but he killed it totally)

        • glans [it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
          2·
          2 months ago

          i’m with you in principal but why does your proposed solution rely so heavily on the US owning everything? Wouldn’t putting it out into the world under some kind of Libre license be better? (Creative Commons Share-Alike for medicines.)

          Bill Gates is such a fucking menace.

          I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing but I recall people in Oxford were seriously contemplating publishing their COVID vaccine info freely but Bill Gates flew his ass to England and had a private meeting with the guy in charge. Told him that brown people can’t be trusted to do manufacturing properly and it was a recipe for disaster letting them make half-assed products. Idk if that was really compelling to the guy or maybe also waved around prospects of future funding or whatever. But whatever it worked.

          • JusticeEnglish
            4·
            2 months ago

            Uh, I think I got off on the US because I live in this shithole. Obviously any vaccines developed outside the US shouldn’t belong to the US at all. My main concern with patents and stuff would be US corporations doing what they did they to the insulin patent. It was never intended to be profitable, and yet it is.

            It’s all just tinkering stuff ultimately because I would like to see private pharma totally gone and only be publicly funded and then internationally shared for the betterment of all human existence.

            • glans [it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
              1·
              2 months ago

              Obviously any vaccines developed outside the US shouldn’t belong to the US at all.

              What about those developed in the US?

              My main concern with patents and stuff would be US corporations doing what they did they to the insulin patent.

              Well first of all insulin was developed in Canada. But I was actually thinking of it in suggesting something akin to Share-Alike. Which I didn’t really explain but it is a feature of certain Creative Commons licenses e.g. CC BY-SA:

              ShareAlike — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original. No additional restrictions — You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits.

              Now obviously this is intended for artistic works. Even applying it to source code is highly discouraged. But I do find it useful to contemplate the ideas. CC are attempts to make libre culture integrate in capitalism and as such are doomed to certain limitations. So depending if you are thinking reformist or revolutionary, will go in different directions. Under communism we wouldn’t have patents. We would have inspections, regulations etc but patents… don’t think so.

              My concept is that some sort of SA written with pharmaceuticals and medical devices in mind, could have, time travel-wise led in a different direction.

              I am totally unclear in my limited research about whether/how a patent from 100 years ago is in force or relevant today.

              In any case, nobody uses that insulin, everybody uses modern insulins and what really costs is the delivery devices (needles). What we need (under capitalism) is a mechanism to extend the good vibes “virally” to related innovations. Whatever they may be.

              background re insulin

              The discovery of insulin revisited: lessons for the modern era

              In late May 1922, the University of Toronto and Eli Lilly worked out an agreement that gave Eli Lilly the exclusive rights to manufacture and distribute insulin (free of charge) to selected physicians and hospitals (1, 48, 49). After one year, the company was free to charge for insulin and patent any innovations on their product (see also below). A very close working relationship between the Toronto team and scientists at Eli Lilly ensued (50, 51). The rationale provided by the board of governors of the University of Toronto for favoring one company was that concentrated effort by one firm would be the most effective solution to overcoming the supply problem. Heading off anticipated criticism of being “unethical or unfair or as in any way prejudicial to the free manufacture of insulin” (1), they also stated that they would “give other firms, as well as hospitals and other non-commercial concerns, every chance to do the best they can by publishing the details of the methods … in full at an early date” (1, 48, 49). With the resources and advances Lilly applied to the manufacture of their pork “Isletin” by late 1922, they were starting to overcome the drastic shortage. Further modifications overcame several potency and stability issues, and, by early 1923, Lilly was able to manufacture sufficient high-quality insulin for the needs of the entire world (1, 48, 49). By late 1922, the Connaught Laboratories had updated their equipment and production facilities and also begun to overcome their initial production challenges (1, 47, 48). The University of Toronto also granted complete British patent rights to the insulin extract to the Medical Research Council of Great Britain (48), and European rights to the nonprofit Nordisk Insulin Laboratory, facilitated by the Nobel laureate August Krogh of the University of Copenhagen and his associate, H.C. Hagedorn, later merging with Novo to become the present-day insulin manufacturing company Novo Nordisk (48).

      • Evilphd666 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        5·
        2 months ago

        Or theres a “treatment” that ends up being a subscription plan on your lofe thats even more profitable.

        I hope China can put them all to shame to the point the world can ignore it and our companies are forced to assimulate.

      • glans [it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
        4·
        2 months ago

        lol I mentioned that just down the thread.

        My understanding is that development was encouraged by the US military because they were worried about bio terrorism. The September 11 Never Forget anthrax attacks were not yet totally forgotten about. There was a case where a critically ill man flew to Texas(?) where he was admitted to hospital, staff didn’t realize they needed to follow strict contact precautions, and a nurse contracted Ebola which she died of. As did the patient. It caused a panic because people realized Ebola may not be confined to “over there” and worried what if extremely sick Africans started coming to the US maliciously?? They could go to the mall or anything and infect all kinds of people. So it became salient to actually develop a vaccine to this disease because now white/wealthy people could be at risk. It became a a National Security issue and military $$$ got involved.

        So researchers that had been toiling away for decades suddenly got an influx of money and attention. Since a lot of the groundwork was already done, they quickly developed a vaccine which was effective in humans. But when it came time to finalize the approvals by like filling in the forms, dotting the is, crossing the ts, doing the final study, resources were pulled. Americans weren’t afraid of Bio Terrorism any more. Now that the problem was back to only affecting Black people in Africa it didn’t seem to be a priority so who cares.

        I remember hearing about this in the time between the development of the vaccine and its approval. Scientists saying “we have this, its ready to go!” Of course they are trying to court favor with people more powerful than themselves, not be firebrands, but the frustration was very clear.

        In many ways the story is the same as the Lyme vaccine. Ebola is a way worse disease 10000x but why should we have any diseases?

        And people think too many vaccines is the conspiracy. Hey everyone: it’s too few vaccines.

        (Not even starting about distribution.)