As a woman I can never know if a man will hurt me or not. It’s really that simple. With a bear I am on a far safer (more predictable) ground.
A guy who had gotten this worded it this way for other guys: If, as a man, you leave a house late at night to walk somewhere, you do not have to prepare for assault mentally every time. You are relatively safe in the world by default. You don’t carry keys in your hand etc. or exist with constant awareness of the steps behind you or with the need to scout if the men that walk past you are hostile or friendly. You don’t have to adjust your behaviour to minimize the chances of getting jumped. It’s a wholly different existance in the world that a man can’t apparently comprehend. Men also tend to physically have the upper hand, there is no balance here.
Real life example, I stood outside a library, on the phone and minding my own business at about age 20 when an average looking guy walked into the same yard and started staring at me weird. Middle of the day, public spot. There were no other people around. He was just a guy.
I stayed on the phone, but became aware of the threat. Because that is what you do to stay safe. A moment later he tried to assault me. I was able to run inside to safety behind a locked door and this man did stuff behind the glass door while I was trapped inside that I don’t want to repeat. This is what just happens, everyone I know has similar stories. This would not happen if I saw a bear in the woods.
And this kind of stuff becomes your life experienxe, that we can’t talk about because mens feelings get hurt. I can’t believe this has to be repeated in 2024…
I drove a taxi as a woman for some years, I was inappropiately approached and touched almost every night. By men. Every single male customer I had to scout and tiptoe around because you never know. Drunk men were especially unpredictable.
If you are a man and I am alone with you, I will consider you a bigger threat than I would a wild animal. Regardless of what you really are like. I can’t know that. Best friends and close people rape women, beat women. Good guys go dark. We can’t afford to not be aware of this in everyday life. It isn’t about you persoally, but it is about men and the way men behave.
I grew up in some “sketchy” places and I have always had an instinct to keep my head up even as a guy and I know that must be ten times worse as a woman.
But also, I don’t think people are saying men are inherently or biologically dangerous because of their literal man-ness. Rather, men are socialized by the ideology of patriarchal-masculinity in a way that makes them dangerous. Every man was once a sweet little boy, part of the process of “growing up” is to mutilate boys’ psyches until they become men. Men are made to be violent, aggressive, controlling, domineering, and dangerous. Masculinity is its own kind of trauma, every man carries that baggage with him and has to cope with it.
“Not all men” actually misses the point, in that every single man is socialized this way and have been since we invented the social technologies of family, private property, and the state. We have to assume any given man is dangerous because it’s too fucking dangerous to give them the benefit of the doubt, so if a man approaches me at night I’m going for a weapon. That’s not his fault, it’s not my fault, it’s just the way it is.
Look, I don’t really want to respond to you here. This thread isn’t about this issue, and I didn’t want to make it one. I sought merely to offer a minor guardrail against a claim that I found incorrect.
I will only respond to one point: Nobody in this thread said men cannot be raped, that’s true. I wouldn’t say anyone in this thread has been sexist against men; I don’t agree with the other dude who was in here complaining about it.
But the idea that “literally nobody ever said” that men cannot be raped is false. It is, unfortunately, a commonly-held belief. Here’s a study which mentions it as a “male rape myth” (section 1.2): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8258646/
I will not be responding to any further comments on this issue. I hope you have a good day, and I’m sorry that you found my point disappointing, but I don’t think I was wrong.
I really do not comprehend why you went off on this tangent about sexism. You just described that its misandrist to ascribe ‘feminine’ traits to men, but in reality it is misogynist (re: women are described or implied as inferior in the examples given). I’m not understanding how your description of male SV ties into the discussion here. As an aside a similar phrase is often something misogynists say on reddit, ‘feminists don’t care about male SV’, so thats why you’re receiving a hostile response. The concept you’re referring to is a legal definition, and that definition defines SV acts as requiring penetration of the victim. Of course this is an awful way to define SV, but is it sexist towards men specifically? No, ultimately this is bad for all victims of SV, as acts of SV can often be multifaceted and perpetrators often know the rules and laws surrounding them and try to skirt the definitions. Women that are attacked sexually are often maligned in much the same way as men are with similar excuses and reasoning.
For the cases of woman to male SV, often society says things like ‘wow that teenage boy sure was lucky getting with that female teacher!’ It is of course an awful thing to say about an SV victim, but this statement also relies on the objectification of women. Re: women are objects to be desired, how can an object cause you mental harm?
Since we are both victims of sexual violence, and as a trans woman I have had the situation of dealing with SV pre and post transition (so being seen as a boy or a woman in many instances) I hope you can take my analysis of this issue seriously. This is very mentally taxing for me and I’m sure it may well be for you, so I understand if some things are said improperly. This is not said to minimize your suffering, but rather to show the intersectionality of SV victims and how misogyny shapes social opinions of SV victims.
edit: talked with sphere, this is really just a case of bad context i think
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As a woman I can never know if a man will hurt me or not. It’s really that simple. With a bear I am on a far safer (more predictable) ground.
A guy who had gotten this worded it this way for other guys: If, as a man, you leave a house late at night to walk somewhere, you do not have to prepare for assault mentally every time. You are relatively safe in the world by default. You don’t carry keys in your hand etc. or exist with constant awareness of the steps behind you or with the need to scout if the men that walk past you are hostile or friendly. You don’t have to adjust your behaviour to minimize the chances of getting jumped. It’s a wholly different existance in the world that a man can’t apparently comprehend. Men also tend to physically have the upper hand, there is no balance here.
Real life example, I stood outside a library, on the phone and minding my own business at about age 20 when an average looking guy walked into the same yard and started staring at me weird. Middle of the day, public spot. There were no other people around. He was just a guy.
I stayed on the phone, but became aware of the threat. Because that is what you do to stay safe. A moment later he tried to assault me. I was able to run inside to safety behind a locked door and this man did stuff behind the glass door while I was trapped inside that I don’t want to repeat. This is what just happens, everyone I know has similar stories. This would not happen if I saw a bear in the woods.
And this kind of stuff becomes your life experienxe, that we can’t talk about because mens feelings get hurt. I can’t believe this has to be repeated in 2024…
I drove a taxi as a woman for some years, I was inappropiately approached and touched almost every night. By men. Every single male customer I had to scout and tiptoe around because you never know. Drunk men were especially unpredictable.
If you are a man and I am alone with you, I will consider you a bigger threat than I would a wild animal. Regardless of what you really are like. I can’t know that. Best friends and close people rape women, beat women. Good guys go dark. We can’t afford to not be aware of this in everyday life. It isn’t about you persoally, but it is about men and the way men behave.
I grew up in some “sketchy” places and I have always had an instinct to keep my head up even as a guy and I know that must be ten times worse as a woman.
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fix society so women don’t have to be afraid of gendered violence then dipass
Yes, it’s gender essentialist to assume that just because you’re a man, you’re dangerous.
It’s also true that we live in a society where performing cisgendered masculinity means you’re vastly more likely to be sexually assaulting people.
Here’s another scenario for you:
(Among the many other inequalities that exist)
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fuck off into the sun, debate nerd
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okay, then just shut the fuck up.
You can’t be sexist against men.
But also, I don’t think people are saying men are inherently or biologically dangerous because of their literal man-ness. Rather, men are socialized by the ideology of patriarchal-masculinity in a way that makes them dangerous. Every man was once a sweet little boy, part of the process of “growing up” is to mutilate boys’ psyches until they become men. Men are made to be violent, aggressive, controlling, domineering, and dangerous. Masculinity is its own kind of trauma, every man carries that baggage with him and has to cope with it.
“Not all men” actually misses the point, in that every single man is socialized this way and have been since we invented the social technologies of family, private property, and the state. We have to assume any given man is dangerous because it’s too fucking dangerous to give them the benefit of the doubt, so if a man approaches me at night I’m going for a weapon. That’s not his fault, it’s not my fault, it’s just the way it is.
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You can’t be sexist against men for the same reason you can’t be racist against white people.
Just let it go dude, the defensiveness a bunch of my fellow bromrades are expressing to this thread is really fuckin disappointing.
Do better fellas.
This is just fuckin misogyny dude, this is not sexism against men.
Literally NOBODY ever said this and the fact you bring this up as some sort of point is sus as fuck.
Look, I don’t really want to respond to you here. This thread isn’t about this issue, and I didn’t want to make it one. I sought merely to offer a minor guardrail against a claim that I found incorrect.
I will only respond to one point: Nobody in this thread said men cannot be raped, that’s true. I wouldn’t say anyone in this thread has been sexist against men; I don’t agree with the other dude who was in here complaining about it.
But the idea that “literally nobody ever said” that men cannot be raped is false. It is, unfortunately, a commonly-held belief. Here’s a study which mentions it as a “male rape myth” (section 1.2): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8258646/
I will not be responding to any further comments on this issue. I hope you have a good day, and I’m sorry that you found my point disappointing, but I don’t think I was wrong.
Edit: I will be touching grass for a while.
Good.
You:
Also you:
Fuuuuuuuuuuck you.
cw: sv
spoiler
I really do not comprehend why you went off on this tangent about sexism. You just described that its misandrist to ascribe ‘feminine’ traits to men, but in reality it is misogynist (re: women are described or implied as inferior in the examples given). I’m not understanding how your description of male SV ties into the discussion here. As an aside a similar phrase is often something misogynists say on reddit, ‘feminists don’t care about male SV’, so thats why you’re receiving a hostile response. The concept you’re referring to is a legal definition, and that definition defines SV acts as requiring penetration of the victim. Of course this is an awful way to define SV, but is it sexist towards men specifically? No, ultimately this is bad for all victims of SV, as acts of SV can often be multifaceted and perpetrators often know the rules and laws surrounding them and try to skirt the definitions. Women that are attacked sexually are often maligned in much the same way as men are with similar excuses and reasoning.
For the cases of woman to male SV, often society says things like ‘wow that teenage boy sure was lucky getting with that female teacher!’ It is of course an awful thing to say about an SV victim, but this statement also relies on the objectification of women. Re: women are objects to be desired, how can an object cause you mental harm?
Since we are both victims of sexual violence, and as a trans woman I have had the situation of dealing with SV pre and post transition (so being seen as a boy or a woman in many instances) I hope you can take my analysis of this issue seriously. This is very mentally taxing for me and I’m sure it may well be for you, so I understand if some things are said improperly. This is not said to minimize your suffering, but rather to show the intersectionality of SV victims and how misogyny shapes social opinions of SV victims.
edit: talked with sphere, this is really just a case of bad context i think
If she’s wrong about you, you’ll get offended, if she’s wrong about a bad person she’ll die a horrific death or worse.