I met up with my ex last week. When she broke up with me, it really broke my brain. But I was able to say to her “having a typically attractive* girlfriend opened doors for me with the beautiful middle class people I was always trying to fit in with, and when you left me those doors slammed shut.” It was nice to just voice it out after all these years and put all the weird recrimination behind.
I sorta wonder what the younger comrades feel. I grew up before the internet, in the 80s when we actually believed that everyone was going to be middle class. Back when I was a kid, every TV show and movie was about trying to get into the cool people group. Life from school to through uni through the early naughts felt like everyone was angling to get in the in-group.
I spent my 20s and 30s repeating the same cycle: meet a group of people, feel accepted, try really hard to be part of the group, then get burned from said normie group for various reasons. The older I got the harder I tried. Like guys, I GOTTA make this group work because I’m running out of time.
Now those same people are boring as fuck to me. I can barely maintain the emotional labour to listen to them. If you’re not marxist/anarchist, activist, vegan, and/or mask wearing, I can’t honestly force myself to talk to you. It does help that most of the normies outed themselves as sociopaths during COVID times. Most people who know me IRL probably think I’m cold. I make a real effort for the actual proles I meet tho.
I suspect you younger comrades probably figured it out much earlier than I did. But if you’re still searching, I hope this helps you out.
*Sorry I know that “typically attractive” can be problematic and arbitrary. In this story, I’m referring to the irrational standard enforced by the mainstream culture and media.
I think I stopped looking to “fit in” when I realized my actual desire was to be genuinely loved by others, and to viscerally feel that was true. Being “in the group” was a poor substitute for this feeling. Many groups of people do not love each other very well, and these tend to be the groups that take a lot of energy to conform to.
If you’re not marxist/anarchist, activist, vegan, and/or mask wearing, I can’t honestly force myself to talk to you.
I feel pretty close to this but I’m still negotiating it for myself. I agree with what you said about “It’s shorthand for giving a fuck,” because that’s how I see it as well. You have to give a fuck in order to love a person, and the dominant culture generates apathy towards others.
When I focus my efforts on covid-conscious people, I know at least that they believe in caring for themselves/others so strongly that they are willing to not only reject the dominant culture, but be materially harmed (harassed or assaulted in public, fired or not hired, verbally abused, shunned, denied services) because of it. This is a good start for being able to love in a friendship, even though it’s not everything.
I think I stopped looking to “fit in” when I realized my actual desire was to be genuinely loved by others, and to viscerally feel that was true.
This is rad and I hard agree with it.
In regards to COVID, I’m guessing I’m much older, so it’s a bit easier to not give a fuck about people’s opinions. I’ve had a lot of practice. I also look at how we ignored science with climate chance, and what that brought. After reading peer reviewed articles with tons of data, over and over again, I’m not going to be swayed by a generic lib opinion.
When I focus my efforts on covid-conscious people, I know at least that they believe in caring for themselves/others so strongly that they are willing to not only reject the dominant culture, but be materially harmed (harassed or assaulted in public, fired or not hired, verbally abused, shunned, denied services) because of it. This is a good start for being able to love in a friendship, even though it’s not everything.
This was my original goal during the height of the lockdowns. I was wearing actual respirators to the grocery store lol. But it was basically pointless in my situation because I live with other people who didn’t care and got all of us sick, and they still held parties (and told me not to tell any of the guests we had covid because they delayed it like 3 times for different reasons).
After 3 years I eventually mostly gave on masking. Not because I think it’s “just the flu bro” or that vaccines cure everything, mainly out of selfish desire for a better social life and because my efforts were wasted by a household of indifference. During those 3 years, things were relatively the same when everyone masked, but then after I became the few remaining ones, I realized how the odd the interactions were. Non maskers wouldn’t say a word to me, most maskers wouldn’t say a word to me, and the few maskers that did talk to me - well, 80% of our conversations were about masking and it seemed there was 0 progression in our relationships. Giving up didn’t excel me to popularity or anything, but it brought me back to the baseline.
What’s paradoxical about all of this is what I don’t know if I can fully trust the people I develop friendships with moving forward because they’re likely to be non maskers like me. In the subsequent, inevitable crisis, will they just ride the stream as we do now and leave me behind if I can’t or won’t catch up, just as I’m doing now with others? Will we risk it all just to maintain our relationships with each other? The other party likely doesn’t have this dilemma to think about because they believe we’re built different and don’t need to worry about any crisis.
It maddens me because when I see news and footage of poor countries or just generally non-west countries, people have respect for each other’s health and their own and continue to mask. Even in countries where it’s no longer mandated like China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam, people still mask because it’s been a norm forever and because many health officials continue to promote it. There are few stigmas and awkwardness with socializing because it’s just a routine rather than a rare oddity like it is in the west.
I’ve done the “try really hard to fit into normie group, get burned” a few times, except every time it’s been a queer or neurodiverse group or people, who are supposed to not be normies themselves, so there’s a problem on my end clearly.
I am pretty “lucky” though in that I realised I was trans at age 15 so I never really had the chance to try assimilating or whatever. My wife is beautiful but Idk if any of my past partners would have been considered normatively attractive, so it never really got me any ins with people. My first girlfriend was an insufferable military brat though, which occasionally led to me being abrasive and weird in upper middle class “polite” company, that was fun. Her parents were legit “concerned for her safety” when she wanted to wear a dress the first time, lol.
It is hard to listen to normals generally though, and not just because hearing dumb jokes about AES countries flips the “UNCRITICAL SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF KOREA IN THEIR HEROIC STRUGGLE TO etc” switch, but also because with a lib-or-worse worldview and subsequent lack of understanding, the average normie is often not prone to deep or interesting thoughts, I think.
Also I don’t know anyone else who reads freakishly weird books all day =)
My wife n I are pretty content existing outside of society socially, mostly I spend my time trying to find that non-normo niche to fit into, which hasn’t panned out. Oh well, nevertheless,
I’ve done the “try really hard to fit into normie group, get burned” a few times, except every time it’s been a queer or neurodiverse group or people, who are supposed to not be normies themselves, so there’s a problem on my end clearly.
I’m embarrassed to admit that I’ve been jealous of queer people at times because their groups seem so cool from the outside, but I’m sure that problems exist like any group.
Also I don’t know anyone else who reads freakishly weird books all day =)
What do you read?
I’m glad that you have an amazing wife that you can feel fully human with. It makes navigating this lonely, unfair world a bit easier.
Most of the big ones are lib breeding grounds, let’s be real. Hexbear’s queer group is fuckin rad though, like finally a place without brainworms. We are cool as fuck though
Right this second it’s Unjust Depths, which you should read, do it loser. Otherwise I’ve been directing people to this weird post. Really, there’s somethin funny in my brain :)
Thank you and it really does, she’s awesome and I’d be nothing nowhere without her
OK I promise to giver Unjust Depths a read and get back to you.
So I’m afraid of sounding ignorant, but as long as I’ve been doing activism, a massive percentage (if not majority) of the people involved were queer and there were explicit queer groups just 1 degree of separation away. I don’t know if online groups are lib, but the ones that I interacted with IRL seem pretty decent. I guess that there are plenty of queer libs, but I’d imagine that queer people have a much higher chance, compared to the straights, of being based than being reactionary.
REALLY sorry if I missed the mark.
Maybe talk to Cromalin about it also if you do, she’s the one who gave it to me =)
No that’s fair, and I might just be looking in the wrong places, or it could be an issue with different localities, stuff. But it makes sense that anyone queer would be pushed left, because our entire ability to exist remotely safely at all is thanks to those who came before us throwing bricks at cop cars. Every queer person SHOULD be a goddamn leftist! I think I just have an abnormally sized hatred for lib queers honestly. Idk where to go to find groups of queer commies and anarchists outside of hexbear tho.
You’re aight :)
My wife is a big unjust depths fan, she also recommends it.
I love to hear it!!!
it’s been a queer or neurodiverse group or people, who are supposed to not be normies themselves, so there’s a problem on my end clearly.
I’ve always been in the same group, but more I had a recent experience that made me realize it isn’t just you, it’s them too. Sometimes you just wont click with people and wont enjoy being around them, even if they are different.
Also I don’t know anyone else who reads freakishly weird books all day =)
Any recs?
Yeah and that makes sense I guess, but also I’ve bounced between so many different places and people in life that it’s hard not to view it as being a just-me issue.
I made a lil list of books I can rec if you’re feelin weird. I have other, more cis-er books I like too, like Our Wives Under The Sea or This Is How You Lose The Time War, as well as a select few oddities like Sterling Karat Gold by Isobel Waidner. Yelling about these is generally unproductive though, so I tend to keep my yelling more focused Idk. I didn’t realise there were so many Unjust Depths readers though, Cromalin evidently does good work.
Thanks for the recs
It was really hard to get over the idea that it wasn’t all me. Hopefully you can entertain the thought even a lil bit.
If you’re not marxist/anarchist, activist, vegan, and/or mask wearing
Hate to break it to you, but that’s a very niche person. It’s also limiting to constrain your associates to those traits. That could be the ideal friend group, sure, but you can still make friends with someone completely opposite of you, if you are both mature and understanding of each other’s beliefs.
I have a couple friends like that, we talk about our differences, but we don’t try and convert the other person, or make them feel bad for liking one thing over another.
I met a vegan online, and they shared information that was new to me. I learned that, in another life, I would be vegetarian. If I had not spent time getting to know this person, or meeting the many other people I have, I would not have learned as much, and I would still be very naive.
marxist/anarchist, activist, vegan, and/or mask wearing
It’s sorta shorthand for giving a fuck. I wish it was a niche. But if you’re OK with hurting and exploiting others, we can’t be real friends. I’m not gonna fuck with you or debate you all the time, but I’ll not give you much more than a passing hello.
If you legitimately have a good faith curiosity in any one of those, I can walk you through the science. But if you don’t care about the immunocompromised, the poor, and murdered animals because you prefer a tiny bit of comfort for yourself, well sir there’s a whole country of normies that you can chill with.
Your wording is intense. I’m not sure if that’s just your online persona, or just venting in this thread, but it’s not very welcoming. You seem like you talk more than listen. I’m not trying to roast you or start bad vibes, that’s just my impression.
- Communism could be a better political system, but any political system is subject to failure or overpowered elites
- I have no problems wearing masks when it is applicable. When covid started I didn’t go anywhere without one. I was in San Francisco, where everything shutdown overnight.
- I made friends with a vegan, and after we talked, I concluded that in another life I would be a vegetarian, but I was born to a butcher. I would love if modern meat were replaced by lab meat. I do eat vegan meals sometimes. I think utilizing milk and eggs, etc. for human consumption is fine, they are byproducts that would go to waste otherwise, however it has gotten very inhumane because of the industrial scale.
- What’s your definition of activist?
Let’s not confuse this with wanting to be friends, parts of your ideals are relatable, but from my impression, our debates would result in you trying to win everything.
argues online with an itemized list of disagreements
start reply by passive-aggressively calling the other person angry and irrational
”whats your definition of well-defined word?”
from my impression, our debates would result in you trying to win everything.
Lol, maybe you saved me from wasting my time replying. Thank you.
“You say you’re a communist, but have you considered nothing’s perfect? Also meat tastes too good to be a vegan. Stop being so aggressive.”
Yeah this is why I also barely interact with anyone who isn’t a leftist. Liberals have already shut down everything I’d ever want to say, they don’t share my values, and me simply existing is interpreted as aggressive. There’s nothing to be gained.
People who are already content with the world simply don’t relate to me. Yes, we’re pissed off at various things. Why aren’t you?
Communism is just better than liberalism in every aspect, liberal.
Your wording is intense. I’m not sure if that’s just your online persona, or just venting in this thread, but it’s not very welcoming.
This is “civility”, a tool used by liberals to silence dissent and oppress marginalized people.
When people have to conform to arbitrary standards to be allowed to speak, that’s ableist.
Communism could be a better political system, but any political system is subject to failure or overpowered elites
This is why I don’t try to talk to “middle class” people. There’s just a fundamental break in their perception of reality. There are some cool class traitors who have a grounded understanding, but the rest are just content with living their unexamined life.
Jesus Christ. Just get off hexbear. This isn’t going to go well for you
Your wording is intense.
Hurting people and killing animals is intense. I’m sorry that it’s traumatic to hear, but just imagine how it is for those to experience.
As other posters have pointed out, it’s really hard for someone with middle class comforts to have empathy. I don’t have much confidence in changing your mind.
I have a couple friends like that, we talk about our differences, but we don’t try and convert the other person, or make them feel bad for liking one thing over another.
I regularly talk to some people who have stupid beliefs and interests in shit like Joe Rogan and terrible MRA and religious beliefs. But they’re also some of the few people who are authentic and who I can be authentic and have conversations about the strangest, esoteric shit from history, religion, and politics
They’re still not my friends though. Acquittances, sure. The only reason why I don’t make them feel bad for their beliefs is because I likely still need their assistance until we inevitably part ways.
Elsewhere, I’ve completely cut off people who I thought were friends who weren’t communist or any of those things in the list - some even conservative or military vets - but after they joined the military industrial complex and government security, they seized being any friend of mine. At most I’ll send a text here and there, maybe get some dinner once or twice a year. But they will never be my friend as long as they contribute to these evils, not even out of necessity, but because it pays a lot.
I don’t debate these people because my words don’t mean anything compared to their experiences with religion and the holy paycheck. Maybe the weirdo libertarians in the beginning of the post, but there isn’t a single soul out there who just quits their job because a buddy said their employer is genocidal. And I’m saying that as someone who planned on joining the MIC/security state in my teens and early college. Had I been a bit smarter to graduate early and form more connections to get an MIC/state security job, or dumb enough to join the military, I would be no different than these people, and I would likely see nothing wrong with this world as long as i make money.
Some things are simply too fundamental for me to just “agree to disagree.”
I felt the same way about finding a stable partner as part of attaining middle class status but, when my career goals didn’t pan out, neither did that. Now my relationship to it is a kind of love/hate feeling, where I still want to arrive at those signifiers but, keep having to remind myself they are unattainable social constructs imposed on me by society and I shouldn’t tie myself into knots over it.
As for friend groups, they never really bother with me and I never really put up the energy to bother with them. It doesn’t really bother me except at this point I realize a key to that above-mentioned middle class material success is networking. I never really developed social skills for it in school, especially given having the time for the extracurricular activities associated with middle class networking was outside our income range.
I don’t know. I guess I’ve just learned to accept being the person people aren’t interested in talking to. Though every once in a while I wish I knew people with the same niche interests as me.
keep having to remind myself they are unattainable social constructs imposed on me by society and I shouldn’t tie myself into knots over it.
I need to remind myself about this over and over. I feel like my past depression was basically 100% just me needing thigs that society told me I should have.
I don’t know. I guess I’ve just learned to accept being the person people aren’t interested in talking to. Though every once in a while I wish I knew people with the same niche interests as me.
I swear to god, you should legit interesting. I’m sad that we only know each other online.
realize a key to that above-mentioned middle class material success is networking
This!! And there’s so much faking involved. Honestly I don’t have the energy for it.
I swear to god, you should legit interesting. I’m sad that we only know each other online.
If it wasn’t for the opsec implications, it would be nice to get some IRL meetups going. People here are rad.
I agree.
I need to remind myself about this over and over. I feel like my past depression was basically 100% just me needing thigs that society told me I should have.
I mean on the other hand, I think there is a yearning to be part of society that goes beyond just capitalist/patriarchal norms we have as part of middle class life. I think a sort of longing to be a part of a more egalitarian social group/society is the thing I still yearn for but, cannot get due to the current material/ social situation many of us face. I think many of us want to feel contented in that way by feeling like we are contributing to something positive that is bigger than anyone of us. I guess that’s the sort of “middle class” life I still idealize.
The resentment comes more towards the capitalist/patriarchal norms of the post war social compact that many people keep trying to go back to when they talk of “rebuilding the middle class.” It is impossible to replicate because it existed in a unique geopolitical context that arose for America after WWII and still required the exploitation of billions in the third world to make it work. And even then it was a temporary concession capital gave to labor and retracted it once profitability was threatened in the 70s. I resent that lie for still being sold as ideal despite all it’s contradictions.
This!! And there’s so much faking involved. Honestly I don’t have the energy for it.
Neither do I. I hate having to lie to all those saccharine office people when I feel my skills and education are not as good as they look on paper. So many people think I should have it all figured out just because I have an undergrad degree.
I don’t know. I guess I’ve just learned to accept being the person people aren’t interested in talking to. Though every once in a while I wish I knew people with the same niche interests as me.
It’s odd. I’ve met several people with the same exact interests and beliefs at me. So similar it’s creepy. But ultimately, I can’t sustain a conversation for too long and they don’t seem interested enough to really put in any effort. Obviously common interest doesn’t guarantee personality compatibility, but god damn. Why bother cursing me with this false hope instead of just giving me an L.
Or you hit it off but it looks like their friend group is full and you feel like a third wheel. I especially don’t like having to be the one to initiate contact all the time since it makes me look desperate.
I am 35 for context.
I spent my youth trying to get the local hippies to like me. There used to be a lot of action and clandestine fun in that scene. Or so it seemed. I never really got accepted, but I kept showing up anyway and had a blast despite the cliquey aspect of it all.
I recently had to take a few years off from the scene because of COVID, buying a house, getting married and shifting priorities. Well, I’ve been going back a bit now that things are settled and it was so eye opening to see what losers and scumbags were left.
I’ve always thought that stuff like that was stuff you did to fill the space before you have real meaning in your life. There are still some weekend warriors like me who like to dip their toe back in, and they seem mostly alright, but the lifers will steal your face right off your head (to borrow from Grateful Dead lyrics) and it’s just sad to see all of the people who went all in and have no future.
Like I said, I had a lot of fun, but I’m ready to move on and be happy with the life I’ve built. A lot of hippies are trying to escape something. I focused on building a life I didnt have to escape from.
There’s truth in the saying “hippies are mean people pretending to be nice, and punks and metalheads are nice people pretending to be mean”
Just my two cents
Life from school to through uni through the early naughts felt like everyone was angling to get in the in-group.
Euphoria is extremely funny to me. Everything about it is terrible, but what really makes me chuckle is how “inclusive” the portrayal of cliques seem to be. Some way, some how, every weirdo and dork manage to congregate at the same events and parties.
In a way it’s realistic because I can attest to it. I was never popular, but also not at the bottom of the “cool” hierarchy. I was like Bart Simpson in terms of my placement in the hierarchy. Kind of an odd ball, but people from both ends of the spectrum were friendly to me, although most of the people on the “nerdy outcast” side of the spectrum kept to themselves and I was never part of their clique. I had several cliques and acquaintances and the people ranged from weirdo, weirdo who pulled, nerds, popular by association, popular, gang and cartel members, drama queens, and hot people. As such not everyone clowned on me for being me, but i wasn’t exactly their first choice of interaction - I just happen to be at the right place at the right time sometimes.
Elementary was kind of funnier. We had “crews” that formed naturally between close friends, it had arbitrary, unwritten rules, and people were purged (or “fired”) and accepted back for smallest infractions. If we got spiteful enough we would splinter into a rival crew, only to disband it because the original was usually always superior in terms of cohesiveness (we were friends, whereas the splinter groups were made up of random kids who were recruited out of opportunity lol). I was the de facto leader because 1. I was the tallest and 2. Most of my friends didn’t take initiative on our activities.
I spent my 20s and 30s repeating the same cycle: meet a group of people, feel accepted, try really hard to be part of the group, then get burned from said normie group for various reasons. The older I got the harder I tried. Like guys, I GOTTA make this group work because I’m running out of time.
I’m in my 20s. About to be in my mid 20s. I’m still trying to find the right group of friends and a girlfriend while I’m college because lord knows it’ll be miserable in a work place. And I’ve wasted half a decade with nothing to show for it, and I have less a few semesters left.
*Sorry I know that “typically attractive” can be problematic and arbitrary. In this story, I’m referring to the irrational standard enforced by the mainstream culture and media.
You don’t need to put a disclaimer lol. You dated this person presumably because you’re attracted to her right? So they’re attractive. All attraction is is arbitrary.
@ButtBidet@hexbear.net If you can get into some community sports stuff at a center or anything, if you’re in a decently sized city, you’re bound to make some friends that way
But yeah, being the potential brother in law is the best. i haven’t had anything serious for a while. i am feeling that absence of social links from having a competent S.O. but i haven’t really been depressed idk. just FOMO
