I’m torn between “Every people deserves the right to self-determination” and “Catalunya is richer than Spain, so it’s the bourgeosie wanting to split off from the poors and pay less tax”
I’m sceptical about independence movements in general. Overwhelming majority of newly independent countries go absurdly nationalistic and anticommunist. The only ones that turned out to be at least acceptable were explicitly leftist from the beginning.
Read Stalin’s Marxism and the National Question. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm
Nationalism derives from the bourgeoisie and intellectual middle class that develops as a result of capitalism, but national oppression can make it a cause of the working class. Not all “nationalism” is the same and must be evaluated dialectically on a case by case basis
But it goes both ways when the bourgeoisie use nationalism to keep its control over the working class even after successful secession. In fact, the same nationalism can swiftly go from somewhat positive to very negative thing, like Polish nationalism that almost instantaneously went from national liberation goals to anticommunism and national oppression against ethnic minorities in newly independent Poland.
I believe Mao also argued similarly, that some construction of nationalism among oppressed peoples is beneficial in encouraging anti-colonial, anti-imperialist movements and that it’s different from nationalism found in imperialist countries.
Yes! Mao argued that it wasn’t just nationalism, but their nationalism was internationalism because a defeat for the Japanese imperialists was a victory for all working people including the Japanese working class.
Yes, that’s what it was! I couldn’t remember exactly. Thanks!
Japanese imperialists was a victory for all working people including the Japanese working class.
I think the issue is, that’s not always true. Sometimes an imperial victory would be a material benefit for the imperial working class.
While this is the thesis of third worldism/settlers it’s completely untrue unless you think class struggle is completely non-existent in imperialist countries. The strength and position of the monopoly capitalists gives them the power to wage war totally against the lower classes of their own country. Third worldism almost in a sense sees the equation backwards where the reality is that revolution is stifled in the imperialist countries because those countries monopoly capitalists have such intense power they have both the carrot and the stick to prevent the class struggle from being able to escalate. The Russian Revolution was the first successful socialist revolution out of all countries because it was the weakest, most backwards, and internally factionalist imperialist power.
In this case, Mao was specifically talking about how the Japanese communists were also waging war against the Japanese imperialists class fighting for the working class. There were opportunist and trotskyite figures in the united front against Japanese imperialism that were claiming that they must abandon nationalism in favor of internationalism and sit behind the KMT, while Mao and similar forces were correctly advocating for taking up the national cause and fighting on the Frontline everywhere there was one.
it’s completely untrue
Really? Then why does the US working class filled with a bunch of regressive shitasses?
That’s imprecise enough to be meaningless. US working class is filled with regressive shitasses, but also deeply kind and intelligent folks; same as anywhere on the planet.
Besides, you didn’t challenge faer point at all; you agreed with fae that an imperialist nation’s working class is done a disservice by living in a country with enough treats that it dissuades them from engaging in class struggle.
This is a really excellent point!
independence movements in colonized countries, even the ones that went left afterward involved to some extent rightist nationalists. the only event conforming to your general rule is the dissolution of the USSR, which distinctly marginalized the left since the left are the ones who were overthrown. other countries it’s not so discrete, look at Africa or South America, leftwing and conservative independence movements have both been successful, and have often overthrown each other after independence.
Independence movements in post-WW1 Europe also mostly produced right-wing nationalistic countries with short-lived Hungarian Soviet Republic as the only exception (that got crushed by other newly formed countries).
Former colonies is murkier question, but even there things often didn’t improve for the left (although interference from imperial powers often played a decisive role in shifting the political dominance to rightists there).
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apparently the anarchists are supporting independence, maybe they figure they can take it over afterward lol. but beyond that, i think my desire to see the Francoist monarchy & sucdem cowards eat shit is greater than some bourgeoisie getting some wish fulfillment. at the very least it’d be republic
The CDR had the chance to do something very based, that’s true
“Every people deserves the right to self-determination”
Here’s the thing: this isn’t really true, is it? There isn’t really a universal right to “self determination”, if there was we’d have to acknowledge the right of those successionist yahoos who want to true some random county in Montana into AnCapistan to legalize child marriage. We recognize people should be ruled by a government that represents them, and in examples like colonialism that right is being blatantly violated, but that doesn’t mean every group of 10 or more people who are unhappy with their government has some universal right to form their own little country. If we did the whole world would be a patchwork of micro-nations the size of Rhode Island.
at minimum theyre getting rid of a monarchy, which i consider to be an improvement
But if you recognize the right of self-determination for yahoos that want child brides, that is negating the self-determination of the children that are victims. What would be the problem with a patchwork of micro-nations? These nations could form federations or whatever to complete projects that may take the resources of a large nation, or whatever reason there would be to want large nations versus micro-nations. They could form alliances that say “we don’t like micro-nations that have child brides and shit like that” and they could fight against that. But then you basically have a United States sort of thing.
But if you recognize the right of self-determination for yahoos that want child brides, that is negating the self-determination of the children that are victims.
Do children have a universal right to self determination? We protect children from abusive and neglectful parents but we do also recognize that good parents have some authority of their children. We don’t let children run away and join the circus or eat nothing but candy till they have diabetes.
What would be the problem with a patchwork of micro-nations?
Cuz it tends to create ethnic conflicts and war. Yah know like in Yugoslavia. That’s literally where the term balkanization comes from. Plus few places are totally ethnically homogenous, what if my home falls in the border of one micro nation despite me preferring the government of the micro nation just to my south? What if my village is split 50-50 between two ethnic groups, which micro nation do we join?
These nations could form federations or whatever to complete projects that may take the resources of a large nation, or whatever reason there would be to want large nations versus micro-nations.
This is how most democratic nations already work though, they divide their territory up into regions that have some local autonomy in political matters.
if there was we’d have to acknowledge the right of those successionist yahoos who want to true some random county in Montana into AnCapistan to legalize child marriage… every group of 10 or more people who are unhappy with their government has some universal right to form their own little country. If we did the whole world would be a patchwork of micro-nations the size of Rhode Island.
Yeah but those aren’t a people.
Now if you ask me to define “What’s a people? What’s a nation?” I can’t give you a cut-and-dried definition that will fit all cases. If you want to say ten people are a nation it’s a clichéd old schoolground argument (parodied in Ulysses: “A nation is the same people living in the same place. —By God, then, says Ned, laughing, if that’s so I’m a nation for I’m living in the same place for the past five years.”) but use common sense. Catalonia has a language and hundreds of years of history. The Kurds have a language and thousands of years of history. Ten people in a township isn’t comparable.
Every people deserves the right to self-determination
I’ll support a nationalist struggle if it directly helps the left but I feel like anything in the white/european sphere outside of the territory wanting to do a USSR 2 should just be ignored. Like how does an independent Catalonia get us communism? It’s just going to be another state in the EU, maybe left leaning but it will still be capitalist. Look at Ireland, the IRA is fucking dead, even if they got back north Ireland at this point it wouldn’t fucking matter as it’s just libs running it.
This says the IRA run the biggest party, idk: https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/07/22/inside-sinn-fein-the-men-and-women-behind-irelands-biggest-political-party/
Sinn Fein is sucdem, the Ira lost much of its Marxist roots before the troubles even started. And sure they are left for Western Europe, but Ireland is largely irrelevant now to modern leftists. Their support for Palestine is nice but it’s a mostly empty gesture, they still have an Israeli embassy ffs. Ireland has been integrated fully into the imperial core like South Korea was in the 21st century.
they still have an Israeli embassy ffs.
They may not in a few hours, voting on today’s agenda. PS: the motion was defeated 85 votes to 55. China has an Israel embassy.
I wonder how many concessions Biden is giving Xi to keep it open?
Yeah but the Israelis are getting stabbed outside the Chinese embassy.
the Ira lost much of its Marxist roots before the troubles even started
There were multiple IRA’s during the troubles. The Official IRA was more Orthodox Marxist, while the Provisional IRA was the one that did the car bombings, and though it didn’t start out Marxist, it moved in that direction as time went on.
It’s apt to say that the Ira is an unorganized clusterfuck that lost the revolutionary potential it had. Like obviously we should still support their campaign against occupation but we can acknowledge that their time has passed. A new organization is necessary for Ireland, probably one that is not led by whites.
On top of that the Official IRA split into factions as well. the INLA was a united front org with MLM, Trot, and anti Revisionist elements, while the Worker’s Party was growing progressively disinterested in armed Republicanism.
It is worth noting that essentially Republicanism survived and managed the few gains it did because the Provos rejecting the Official IRA. Keep out of trouble and hope Moscow wins the Cold War was not a viable strategy and the Provisional IRA represented a shift you see in the anti-aparthied struggle and Cuba.
at minimum theyre getting rid of a monarchy
I think that independence would entail a great economic recession, seeing how companies relocated to other parts of Spain leading up to the (shitty and unserious) referendum. The EU said they wouldn’t allow them to use the Euro if they got the independence IIRC. Even if they got it on favorable conditions, it wouldn’t really make a substantial difference, they could be “bullied” by Spain as much as they are now, but with more symbolic sovereignty, maybe? Spain has the bigger companies and Catalonia would most likely be forced to trade with those, while critical industries like energy, telecomms and transport are private, so the ownership probably wouldn’t be transferred.
I wouldn’t take Catalonian independence too seriously, although I think some liberties should be granted. The concerning part is conservatives who are frothing at the mouth at the weakest independence effort, calling it “Spain’s doom” or whatever tf, and at absolving some politicians who were initially accused of rebellion (as if they were armed) and finally charged with sedition, despite there not being much violence apart from some protests. They also disregard how ~50% voted for independentist parties on the elections leading to the referendum, wanting to sweep those people under the rug, as if that could be equated to solving the problem.
As someone who grew up in a exclusively Spanish-speaking region, I get how these reactionaries come to be. They think Catalonia/Euskadi/Galicia is just another region and “is Spain and therefore they must speak Spanish” (which the constitution says), completely unaware of those regions’ history and context. I would dare say the majority of parents who want their children being taught in Spanish (something right wingers are very loud about, as all classes are given in Catalan/Euskera/Galician) are just (Spanish) immigrants. Most people there are born speaking their language and die speaking their language, just like the Spanish-speaking regions do with Spanish. Their languages were outright banned for centuries since 1715. No wonder lots of anarchists were Catalonian and Basque. Never mind the obvious asymmetry of having to learn a completely external language (external to the community, specially in reference to rural areas, which are the most pro-independence). Though I don’t think this is a pressing issue, I still believe better policy should be implemented, either Switzerland’s or Canada’s way. Of course, there are other factors to the respective national identities, but to me it seems the most visible.
On the other hand, there’s also that petty-bourgeois “we are paying for the rest of the country” line of thought. Again, the largest independentist party by far is right-wing. This may have been exacerbated by the economic crisis, austerity politics post-2008 and the general hostility coming from the right-wing government, but don’t take my word for it.
I admit, I’m not an expert in the subject, so feel free to correct or dismiss me.
Basque independence movement has better vibes, no I will not elaborate
Hot take but Catalonian isn’t even a dialect, it looks like it’s just an accent. If you go on catalunyan wikipedia it is identical to spanish with just minor spelling differences (that they seem to forget to use occassionally). Like if Catalunyan is a language then New Yorker and Bostonite are languages.
that’s dumb
Catalan isn’t even from the same branch of Western Romance languages as Castillian. That’s just ignorant.
I consider all modeen Romance languages to just be dialects of Latin.
I’ll stop being smug towards Romance languages when their speakers stop trying to genocide every non-Romance language they come across.
Lmao I respect the send my guy
Support because fuck Europe, let those bastards deal with secessionist movements trying to emulate it for the next fifty years. Nice bit of irony after forcibly colonizing the rest of the world.
However if I lived in Europe I probably would not support it lol
I think the class character of a movement informs whether it should be supported, and in this case Catalan independence is mostly rich people trying to break away to pay fewer taxes and thus shouldn’t be supported. Imagine if you allowed this type of secession on principal every single time it came up: large chunks of Europe would be sectioned off from the rest and turned into ghettos while the rich parts continue to siphon wealth from them and the rest of the world in an intensified version of the modern system of unequal exchange. Not exactly an improvement unless you’re an accelerationist.
It’s different from supporting a problematic nationalist movement against imperialism, ie Iran or Russia or Palestine. Even if the people of those countries have fully developed class consciousness, fat lot of good it would do them if they were fully under the thumb of a much more powerful country. The people of Spain are not under any such imperialist thumb, and thus only their working class movements should be supported.
The less Spain the better
Good take
