And those anxious and xenophobic motherfuckers gonna live for sooo much longer than their parents. They easily gonna leech from my salary for the next two decades while I will certainly not get a dime from the generations after me. That generation lived of the wealth of the generations before them AND after them.
Fuck u slave! Keep cucking so better people can live large
Fuck u slave! Keep cucking so better people can live large
And everyone is afraid of immigration. It’s bizarre.
and investing in the young
Fuck you I got mine
We are afraid of immigration because there is so few housing that bringing people will just add to the pressure and make rents even more ridiculously expensive . Also, in my country (Portugal), these workers accept working for less and live in miserable conditions (overcrowded homes, tents outside of Lisbon, etc), making it worse for everyone else, causing an exodus of qualified people and a flood of “tourism workers” because salaries just not increase when there are people accepting to work for less.
Meanwhile our public services are collapsing left and right because qualified people just leave and there are so many new people trying to access public healthcare etc.
This is not the black and white immigration is good/bad you are making it out to be .
I’m from Portugal also and it’s not immigration that is driving high rent prices. That’s a disingenuous position. Golden visas and Airbnb have contributed MUCH more to this as well as the liberalization of rents coupled with low new housing projects.
The workers that accept low salaries are mostly seasonal workers and they don’t compete with locals for decent housing and if you were honest you would mention that most of the time you have plenty of them living in the same space. Again, not occupying a lot of the housing destined for locals. I don’t see locals eager to go live in Odemira in the houses occupied by seasonal workers or in Martim Moniz in degraded housing.
Also from Portugal and did you really just say that the problem with immigration is that they get exploited and then everyone ELSE suffers?
I mean i think you see what’s wrong with that.
Also without immigrants Portugal would be completely fucked because all the young people are leaving the country for better jobs in Europe. Someone needs to pick up the slack otherwise it’s just old people and a couple of children.
Also Portugal has a ton of houses. We are above average in houses per capita iirc. We have a problem with salaries and an over dependence on tourism.
He’s just someone trying to provide a false narrative to justify his racism.
Imagine claiming your issue isn’t with immigrants then immediately listing all the reasons immigrants are to blame for the actions of the capitalists that exploit them, and you, and the government that allows it… 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
This is not the black and white immigration is good/bad you are making it out to be .
no, it’s just you who is wilfully ignorant. And afraid. Because of your wilful ignorance.
Imagine not addressing any of the points, and instead just accusing someone of being wilfully ignorant.
How ignorant
Just to be clear, you’re arguing that if capitalism didn’t exist in Europe, we would be building twice as many buildings per year? This is the dumbest take I’ve read today, and I accidentally landed on r/Politics this morning.
Dunno about twice as much but the problem isn’t housing (Portugal has a shit ton of houses). The problem is affordable housing and yes capitalism is very much to blame here.
Not in a “free market = bad” that I’m very much for in many situations but simply because it’s not profitable to build affordable housing. A vast percentage of the housing built in Portugal is for upper middle class, so everyone below that (which in Portugal is a shit ton of people) you are fucked. And even if you lived in a decent house prices have skyrocketed so much that you get kicked out if they can do that.
Capitalism by design is very much against public housing and you don’t even need to imagine how the situation would be if you had that. You can just look at Vienna and see how they are doing in that regard (spoiler: pretty fucking well compared to the rest of Europe/world).
I’m not against immigration but it’s no solution. You’re in Europe. You’re trying to replace a workforce that has free education, in a place with high quality education infrastructure, therefore most of them have bachelors and probably at least one or more masters degrees, with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
I’ve literally had migrant refugees from Lebanon, Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco and such as flatmates in Brussels. Some of them are my close friends. They are not remotely prepared to take over 90% of European jobs. You either need social skills, labor skills, language skills or technical skills which they simply do not have. If i was in their shoes, it would take me decades to catch up to how Europeans work.
The migrants come here for what ? Uber eats ? How are they supposed to support themselves ? With government integration money we don’t have available ? But say we figure it out and they live and then they will have kids one day. Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the locals. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
So the issue here isn’t that we lack people in Europe. It’s that our economic doctrine is deficient. We need to change the doctrine, not the people. Immigration will not solve this problem, it will perpetuate it. Young people not having kids is an economic issue that will still happen whether you have a European young person there or a Iraqi young person there. You can’t simply transplant a young couple from a country with very high birth rates in a totally different part of the world, subjected to an entirely different set of circumstances and expect them to be the same in Europe. That’s not how this works.
with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
You’re talking shit. Immigrants make up 20% of the NHS in the UK, and loads also work in the care sector, those are vital jobs and you have to be literate. Most immigrants I’ve met speak better English than the local toe rags.
Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the local. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
The lack of young workers?
You are deliberately talking over them. They’re clearly not claiming that all migrants are illiterate or uneducated or ill-prepared for work in Europe. They’re arguing that many are, and those migrants exacerbate our problems. They certainly don’t solve them.
Define many. What percentage are illiterate?
It depends on the nation. The UN collects data. Afghanistan is 62.7% illiterate, for example. Further, Almost all refugees to Denmark have zero Danish language reading and writing skills. They must learn all of these. Slightly more (but shockingly few) have any English reading and writing skills.
Surely it isn’t surprising to you that refugees have limited European language skills?
Refugees != immigrants
Refugees are indeed immigrants.
immigrant: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence
Aren’t western countries have strict education requirements before they would even consider permanent residency applications? Or are you talking about refugees, which imo shouldn’t be counted as a way to replenish aging workforce because the governments let them in for humanitarian reason?
essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
saying with all due respect doesn’t make your bullshit racist essay any less racist, racist.
How is this racist? If I move to, say, Azerbaijan, I’m just as lost as them. I know fuck all about the language, can’t even read the alphabet they have and don’t know shit about the culture. And we share skincolours.
I have a PhD, but I’m basically useless in Azerbaijan for anything but menial labour, explained slowly with lots of gestures.
Culture isn’t nearly that important, and learning the language, or just speaking English, is a minor obstacle all things considered. If you move somewhere, you will get a language teacher.
What the hell are you talking about? Culture is hugely important, if you move somewhere that fundamentally has issue with you… might might be outright killed.
Countries don’t all necessarily speak English. I’m visiting Mexico right now… it’s actually quite hard at times to find English speakers. The police I’ve interacted with here… no English. Border crossing… very limited English. Acting like English is something special is very short sighted.
Assuming that all immigrants or refugees will just have access to language tutoring is absurd. That’s typically an expensive cost. One that many people simply cannot afford.
Well, then maybe it’s different In the Americas, I don’t know, but you mentioned an European country.
I live in Europe, been around various places in Europe. I’m an immigrant myself. It’s not nearly as bad as you might think.
And yes, obviously racism and xenophobia is a problem, but integrating into the culture won’t fix that.
If you won’t even acknowledge that some people need help to learn to read, does that mean you want to eliminate literacy support for refugees? Isn’t that far more racist than just accepting reality? I believe this is what we call horseshoe politics at work. The tendency for the loudest “anti-racists” in the room to be the absolute worst racists.
So what I hear you’re saying is that education is the solution.
We could educate immigrants, which will take some time. We could also educate the Europeans so they don’t take the jobs that requires shorter educations. Either way we will need the immigrants to solve the current demand.
The problem is that the same thing was tried in the 1970s and it didn’t turn out well when the demand for low skill workers decreased again. We already know that the demand will drop again in 20-30 years, so we should already now focus on educating the immigrants, so they can function in society after the low skill jobs are gone.
Another thing is that it’s not like we can stop immigration. The climate changes will result in massive immigration whether we “allow” it or not. They’re not going to sit and die outside imaginary lines on the ground.
IMO, the only realistic option is to accept and start educating immigrants.
most of them have bachelors
Only 30% of people in Europe have bachelors degrees, about the same as the u.s. Thats higher than in developing countries, say India at 8%, but a majority of people in both countries don’t have degrees.
It’s a common misconception by those with tertiary education in the first world that everyone else has tertiary education because they only talk to people in their social class with tertiary education.
Not when you consider that so many are rather old and afraid of change (something which correlates with age).
Just wait until central/north africa becomes unlivable… at least it will probably solve our age distribution issue…
Many comments below (->above?) about housing. But it seems to me, the problem in much of Europe is that many old people hang on to large half-empty family houses, so over 65s are occupying a lot more space than under 15s (although the latter have more energy, need space to play …). It’s a pity they blame immigrants for this.
If only society was designed around looking after people instead of infinite competition, maybe this wouldn’t be so much of a problem
2023 is the hottest year ever in record. Everything suggests that it won’t hold that record for long. Why would I bring children to this world to suffer the hell that 2050 will be?
Because at least you are thinking about such problems (unlike too many). I thought similarly back in 1998, many records broken since, we’re still here, now glad my children are too and getting educated, to help society get through this. By the way the original post is from Ireland which may not get so much warmer (depends thermohaline circulation…) - maybe stormier, although much (not all) of europe will still be nice to live in 2050, adaptation may include many people relocating.
because otherwise who will fix this mess?
Humans are what are causing the mess, and you want to add more of them?
The earth does not care much about climate change, nor about humans. Nature will bounce back eventually. It always did.
Bringing kids into this world, who are educated and adapted will help humanity, not the earth.
Humans and our cultural diversity are part of biodiversity which makes life beautiful, it’s about balance. A longterm goal should be to save more space for other species, but we need educated young people to keep knowledge and tackle the legacy of the mess (among much else) left by their ancestors.
If your in a developed nation with a decent military then you will be among the last to feel the pain of environmental collapse. Most of the world is what we would consider hellish right now, yet people still find a way to laugh and love. Watch these poor souls recycling electronics in Africa. Watch bald and bankrupt in bengladesh. Most people alive today live like this and it doesn’t stop them from living life. We all adapt to our conditions, its all relative to our individual experience and what we consider “normal” in our lives. Your conditions getting worse shouldnt stop you, as they probably have a long way to go to get down to where most people are at now. Enjoy the ride, fight the collapse, or hail the apacolypse, either way someones gotta be around to do it. But at the end of the day it is your choice and do as you will.
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It’s not passing such a milestone that’s an issue, so much as how fast we pass it - i.e. a population decline is sustainable if gradual. My concern is that our models of economics and governance derive from previous centuries when population was rapidly growing, which helped provide social mobility and influence for younger generations. So we need to adjust economics and governance to compensate, to avoid stagnation and gerontocracy.
Geez, feels like just this year that over 64 year olds outnumbered under 14 year olds.
And it’s this exact problem that will get solved with the immigration from climate change. Europe is going to get more African migrants fleeing climate change.
My immediate response is that this is clearly good news - a gradual reduction in population is a good thing. We just need to work on managing the societal practicalities properly
Reductions in population will happen after the climate change issues go unresolved when they needed to be, and resource scarcity forces an economic global crisis never seen in modern history. It won’t be gradual. Every pop model predicts going from 10B to 1B in less than 100 years post vertex. Or at least it seems if we stay on the track we are on.
Yes young people not being able to afford families is a good thing!
Fuck 'em, old people got to finish this circus with a bang.
We’re so utterly fucked…
Covid 2 electric boogaloo?
Europe has proven we can’t fix this by importing millions of unskilled people with radically different values. The social unrest is proving catastrophic. Rightwing parties are gaining traction in almost every European country. The EU is on track to accept more than a million applications this year alone, and most of them have large families which will be granted reunification. Data shows most of them will never work a day in their lives. Our social systems will collapse within a decade at this rate. We’ll be lucky if the EU itself survives this.
Instead, we really need to alleviate the issues resulting in young people not having kids. The usual argument is, “it’s too expensive.” While true, data shows that income isn’t a barrier to fertility. In fact, higher income results in lower fertility, with some exceptions at the very top end of the income spectrum.
As a German, I call bullshit. Every asylum seeker I’ve met either had a job/went to school or was denied a job because the application didn’t go through yet. I’m sure there are people out there who don’t want to work, but please show me the data which shows that “most of them will never work a day in their lives”. Your comment sounds EXACTLY like the rhetorics of the same right-wing you pretend to condemn.
Euractiv link to the same stat
Source from a website self-labelled as "A platform for Syrians to own their discourse
The figures show improvement over time, of course, as German language skills are picked up and general integration occurs, but as that last source puts it: “…the integration process remains fragile, and in its early stages. Much work remains ahead for both Syrian refugees and the German authorities.”
As a German, I call bullshit.
As a Dane, I call bullshit. Show me the stats. Here are ours. Syrian migrants have an employment rate of under 20%. Somali immigrants are under 30%. As you can tell by the same link, their crime rate is astronomical.
As someone from a country where the AfD gains increasing popularity on an almost daily basis, calling “bullshit” rings completely hollow. You clearly have no idea how bad things have become for your average countryman.
I’m in the UK and the handful of asylum seekers I’ve met who are unemployed, have significant trauma and or disability and shouldn’t be working as they are barely coping as it is.
If we can support citizens with these conditions on unemployment, it’s nothing but racism to deny this support to people here under asylum.And unless some kind of supernatural magic occurs that stops capitalism, climate collapse, resource depletion, and all the genocidal authoritarianist politics humans seem to be so naturally predisposed to, birthrates should continue to fall. Adding to our numbers is nothing short of insanity at this point.
We appear to agree about the situation as it is. However you are arguing you wish to make it worse. I, and most Europeans, do not.
Because supporting people makes things worse? Wtf has to be wrong with you to consider providing basic resources to struggling people, a bad thing?
Because supporting people makes things worse?
No. Reducing the capacity of already strained social services makes them worse. WTF is wrong with you that you want to remove social services from struggling people??
