u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
A bit of an odd question, but something that keeps popping in my head that I can’t shake. Hoping to get some other opinions.
Before COVID, I had started a marxist reading group to try to work through Capital together. I didn’t know any marxists/communists at the time, so everyone that came was a total stranger responding to posters I had put up in a few places.
In general it was a great experience with a surprisingly good turnout, although after a few months attendance dropped off quite a bit. I think the text was a little dense for a beginner group, probably should have started with something easier. Honestly I made a lot of mistakes that I wouldn’t repeat if I were to do it again.
In any event, eventually it was just me and one other guy, who set off alarms for me after a while.
He was white and in his mid-thirties. Pretty easy conversationalist. He had an older copy of Capital V1 that he brought with him that looked like it had been read a lot. Like maybe 10-20 times. But he had a somewhat odd understanding of certain passages and would ask the group for their opinion on what x,y, or z thing meant. He would readily agree with whatever the consensus was, never really argued his points.
He claimed to be a member of PSL, and he might have actually been one, I’m not sure. But the nearest PSL organization is about a 2 hour drive or train ride away. He claimed he would make the trip every weekend, and spend time down there doing whatever just hanging out in the big city. Maybe that’s normal for some people, but I’ve never personally met anyone who does that unless they’re in a long-distance relationship. It didn’t sound like he went there to meet anyone, he claimed he just wandered around on his own.
But there’s another odd thing. He had a bunch of 12-gauge shotgun ammunition with him one day, and offered it to me saying he couldn’t use it. It was a whole grocery bag full of boxes of shells… several hundred rounds. It felt like a very weird thing to offer someone out of the blue.
When it was just the two of us and nobody else was coming anymore, I was still trying to have a discussion to work through the book one or two chapters at a time. But then after a couple meetings of that he said he would rather just hang out, drink beer, and talk casually—and that it was going to take too long to get through the book. And then he said that he thought the key to Revolution was to try to get people to stop working at their jobs. Like start taking 3-day weekends, then 4-day weekends, etc. I told him that sounded like a utopian anarchist plan and that it didn’t really make sense to me.
That was the last time I talked to him because he just gave me the heebie jeebies and he obviously wasn’t going to be much help getting through the book.
But what do you think? On a scale of 90-100%, how likely is it that there’s a file on me in the Hoover building? And secondly, how are you supposed to organize and not be infiltrated?
u/AmNOTaPatriot - originally from r/GenZhou
That sounds a lot like a Fed, or at the very least an extremely dodgey fellow.What makes me lean towards Fed is the shotgun shell aspect. That strikes me as some sort of set up, and is highly off putting.
Anyways, it was wise to break contact with them; as the Youth would say “he was acting sus”.
As for the second part, it’s not possible to avoid Feds. You simply prepare for it as a group (and as an individual) and stay vigilant; and that’s really all you can do. And if they’re as janky as this guy was, then they should be far easier to spot.
u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes the shotgun shells really set me off as (potentially) the very early stage of a longer plan. I think if he had never made that offer I might not have thought as critically about the other things.It makes sense, regarding infiltration. This was such an innocuous little group that it feels strange that any serious resources would be dedicated to it. But it also makes a lot of sense for the feds/cops to want to be in on the ground floor of any scientific socialist organizing activities, no matter how small.
u/marbledinks - originally from r/GenZhou
Isn’t it great how terrified they are of us? It’s because they know the truth is on our side.u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes it definitely is a sign that we are on the path that is most threatening to them.I can’t stress enough how rinky-dink this group was. I had no experience with what I was doing, and it disintegrated entirely organically with no real outside interference. The fact that there may have been an agent there to keep an eye on what we were doing speaks volumes—both in terms of the potential threat we pose, and the lengths they are willing to go to make sure we are sufficiently suppressed.
u/ortolon - originally from r/GenZhou
He could also been on several different assignments besides just your group.u/Clownbaby5 - originally from r/GenZhou
Well it definitely doesn’t sound like they put their best man on this assignment. I’m not American but I imagine even there it’s strange to gift someone shotgun shells out of the blue. It was either a fed or a really weird guy so either way it’s a win to break off contact with him.u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Guns are pretty much normal here in the rural US, basically embedded in the (male) culture.But I’ve never been gifted ammunition before, other than friends “loaning” me a box of their ammo while we are out shooting. Being offered several hundred rounds of relatively expensive shotgun shells, basically out of the blue by someone who is just shy of being a complete stranger is definitely well outside of normal.
It kind of felt like something someone from a big US city might think was normal out in the countryside, but actually isn’t.
But yeah, if he was an agent, he was not very discreet or particularly good at his job.
I should have also mentioned that he seemed to be neurotypical, that he had very good social skills, and he had a casual demeanor. Other than the odd things I mentioned in the post, he didn’t give me “weird-person” vibes. My wife came to a couple of the meetings and she really enjoyed talking to him as well.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
That sounds pretty spooky OP. I’d say to go with your gut. Even if the guy isn’t a fed, if he sets off alarm bells in your head, don’t ignore them.u/Elektribe - originally from r/GenZhouOn a scale of 90-100%, how likely is it that there’s a file on me in the Hoover building
You’re posting here, your info is in a data center in Utah already. The U.S. government archives and checks on everything… also reddit has not warrant canary anymore. That there is a file matters s bit less than whether it’ll be accessed depending on how much attention you draw. If your not a particular hassle for them, you’ll just be a file. There’s a reason the leading members of the soviets had a habit of not using their real names. You should perhaps pick up that habit - and probably the less fancy or unique the better.
Also, it should be regular practice to never trade or discuss weapons in any leftist reading groups etc… Go through typical legitimate channels for acquisitions.
But agreed that he sounded like a utopian anarchist, which… yeah also sounds fed like.
u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
That all makes sense.It’s unfortunate that in order to build a scientific socialist movement, we will at some point need to become a hassle to them and have our files pulled. Without going into details, I’ve already made my share of mistakes. I’m sure that it would be fairly trivial for them to take me down as soon as I became a real hassle.
Using an alternative name sounds like a good practice. I will do that going forward for any real organizing activity, and encourage others to do the same.
u/Choorino - originally from r/GenZhou
hard to say, 50/50, but if he is one, he is a super bad one, or a super good one, hard to say, 50/50.u/UndergradRelativist - originally from r/GenZhou
He’s probably just a weird dude. You’d have to have a pretty major thing going on in order for the government to find you important enough to spy on imou/chipliony - originally from r/GenZhou
This is not true, the FBI playbook has been to attempt to get into groups on the ground floor so it seems more organic, and they can more easily get into leadership and make the group ineffective.[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/human-no560 - originally from r/GenZhou
I though in that case, one of the more moderate members flipped and became an informant
u/saltshakerFVC - originally from r/GenZhou
Never forget William O’Neal.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Thanks for sharing this, it’s useful insight into what they consider a threat[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Will do, and likewise
u/timefliesx - originally from r/GenZhou
I had a similar experience. Feds came to my door after I tweeted “if anyone wants a full list of ICE agents names, pics, and the center they work at ((btw all of which was gathered from public sources like linked in)), shoot me a DM.”They had literally just searched Twitter for “ICE” and “shoot” (along with some other firearm &/or violence related words) and tho CLEARLY, my tweet had NOTHING to do with violence or firearms, they came to my door and threatened me, saying that what I wrote could be considered promoting violence against LEOs.
It was… an eye opening conversation lmao. Fuck the feds. Put -that- in my file, please
u/Lenins2ndCat - originally from r/GenZhou
Over here in the UK the police have actively infiltrated orgs with as few as 10 members. Not only that but they had physical relationships with a couple of org members while doing so.Never believe that you’re too small to get targeted.
u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
I’m not so sure. It wasn’t a major thing, but maybe someone important thought it was? I printed a bunch of (IMHo pretty professional-looking) posters and plastered them around. Maybe it caught some unwarranted attention considering the area is extremely conservative.But it’s definitely possible that he was just a weird dude. I kept going back and forth in my head the whole time
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/darkmeatchicken - originally from r/GenZhou
CPUSA was like 50% fed at one point.[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted][deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
There were lots of FBI informants in CPUSA in the 50s and 60s, sure. Back when they were funded by the USSR. These days I’m sure there are no more than any other communist group.Just get used to the fact that you’re under surveillance at all times, and that all of our organizations have infiltrators and informants.
Each of these parties has advantages and disadvantages. I personally picked CPUSA because it’s the biggest, and has the most elder comrades (continuity of struggle is important), and because it is internationally recognized by most other communist parties.
When you read about all the other communist parties in the US, most of them have the same origin story - they split from CPUSA in 19xx because CPUSA had a bad take on some issue that is no longer relevant today. Some of them even split from the splitters - PSL as I understand it came from a Trotskyist group that split from CPUSA in the 50s, then they split again to go back with an ML line.
All this splitting and counter-splitting seems so short sighted to me. If we take a long term view, then it looks kind of silly how every time the party has a bad take, comrades feel the need to run off and form a whole new party rather than stay the course and correct those mistakes over time.
u/Bearlong - originally from r/GenZhouPCUSA
Yes, that shining beacon of leftist organizing, The Presbyterian Church.
^^^^^ok ^^^^^but ^^^^^what ^^^^^does ^^^^^PCUSA ^^^^^really ^^^^^mean ^^^^^i ^^^^^dont ^^^^^know
u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Party of Communists USAu/Bearlong - originally from r/GenZhou
I’m learning :)
u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
I looked into it, and what is happening in Denver is legitimately distressing.[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Having children or other dependents makes everything much harder. No judgement from me.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
It’s safer to say he is one. Either way, it’s good for you to keep away from him, since he seems dodgy, and doesn’t even want to read theory and fight for Marxism-Leninism. Stay safe out there comrade, and I wish you more success with future reading groups!u/3corneredtreehopp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Thank you!The experience was good, I learned a lot from it. And although none of the people who came were ML, everyone was fairly open-minded and willing to talk.
I might make another post here sharing the full story (along with my self-criticism) and asking for more general advice in terms of starting up another reading group. The responses to this post have been helpful to me.
u/dankfrowns - originally from r/GenZhou
It doesn’t even matter if this guy is a fed or not, because until you really get to know someone in a lefty group enough to have a reasonable level of certainty that they aren’t, you should always act as if they are. Whenever you’re in any sort of leftist group, it should just be standard practice to assume that someone there is a fed or cop. It’s actually part of the skill set you develop, learning how to build revolutionary oriented communities but not say anything incriminating, then within that larger community selecting a smaller core of people you are really, really sure you can trust and having deeper discussions. It’s unfortunately more the case that you start off thinking everyones a fed, and then work out who isn’t. Another good thing to remember is that when you have that one guy who you know is a fed, try not to let them know you know. You don’t want them getting spooked and being replaced with someone harder to identify. Just think of them as the groups pet pig.