Hello I just created this Account for this Question. Is it okay to support Israel in the middle east conflict? I’m from Europe and have no ties at all to any Side. Its just that I lean more to the Side of Israel then any other. Is this okay? Is it up to debate which Side is to support or is one of them clearly in the Wrong? (Like Russia is in the Wrong attacking Ukraine or Germany attacking Polland 1939).
EDIT: For clarification: Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.
If this Post is too political please remove and I’m deeply sorry for that.
The Israel and Palestine situation is way too complicated to be left to “I support Israel.” Support in what way? Their existence? Their military campaigns? Their government? Their settlements? Everything they’ve ever done ever?
Do you then oppose everything done by people from Palestine? Do you then oppose the existence of Palestine?
In my opinion it’s not okay to leave your opinion as that simple. If that’s all you’ve got your opinion is bad because it’s simplistic, not because it supports a particular side.
People supporting a side like it’s a bloody football match
I support Israel ownership of the Land they won in the War, their Settlements and their military campaigns. I dont support their goverment. (Sorry I thought that might be clear because i was talking about the Conflict itself not just about Israel as a State)
Maybe think if by the same logic you also support Russia’s “ownership” of Crimea and Eastern Ukranine territory. If you don’t support that, then maybe you’ve been propaganded.
Uh… Since you seem new to the topic, I’d recommend you look up Israeli treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, East Palestine and Israel proper (they’re all bad for different reasons, but the order of badness goes like this), and how the settlement process works. Note: It usually involves Palestinians being forced off their homes.
Israel has been a huge crybully virtually since it was founded. It’s been annexing Palestinian land from the beginning, running a shitty apartheid state, committing ongoing slow genocide on the Palestinian people, then crying the innocent victim whenever they hit back - and guzzling unlimited billions in US military aid to do so.
Hurt people hurt people, and oppression breeds radicalism. Hamas are not nice people, but they’re from a place where nice people don’t live long enough to matter. As with any abusive relationship, there’s going to be toxic coping mechanisms as a result, and it’s important to acknowledge that it’s not okay to do those things.
But Israel (the country, not the people) sure as hell rakes in a lot of money and influence from being constantly under threat from the mean nasty baddies that they just have to keep oppressing and killing and oh look more money.
Hamas is awful. But still and all, fuck Israel.
Fuck Hamas as well. 😉
They are both wrong and they are both right. Up until this past week, I tended to be more sympathetic towards Palestine. Unfortunately, the most recent terrorist attack by Hamas was against more than just Israel or its military. It was a terrorist attack at a music festival, and Hamas attacked citizens of multiple nations.
It’s a lot easier to support Israel right now. It sounds like they’re about to commit their own atrocities though, so you might have to flip your position tomorrow.
Israel responded by blowing up mosques and apartment buildings. They cut off power to everything, including hospitals. They’re blockading to prevent any supplies from entering Gaza. Both sides are committing war crimes and intentionally targeting civilians. Nobody is right here. Supporting either side is encouraging a religious war.
The problem is hamas hides amongst the population, knowing that if Israel hits them, civilians will die too, further fanning the flames.
Those dead civilians obviously radicalize survivors, adding to the ranks. The uninvolved civilians have no power to remove hamas from their space, so their fate is coupled.
This is no comment on the demolitions or other general brutality Israel has been up to, just a discussion on how hamas operates
That’s mostly because of logistics, they have much less resources, Israel is supported majorly by the US, Israel has stuff like the Iron Dome. If Palestine/Hamas would set up any dedicated posts, they’d simply be bombed to oblivion, and that would be that. If they want to fight, being covert about it is their literal only choice.
Still shitty of course, but I’m pretty sure they don’t want to do it if there were any better alternatives to keep the fight up.
The other Problem is that Israel is using Civilians as Settlers to establish a Claim in illegally occupied territories (determined so by the UN, not me)
just to be very clear: fuck Hamas and all the shit they did, and i hope that they pay very very heavily for all the atrocities they’ve committed. But i just wanted to show you, that noone in the Region really takes international law seriously
Both sides suck. Any more elaboration is likely to piss off a lot of people, so let’s keep it simple.
Both suck for different reasons.
But also both are doing damage on different scales…
The whole thing sucks.
Problem is Hamas is Israel’s own creation. They funnelled them money.
they’re both absolutely awful pieces of shit.
but here are my thoughts:
- They’re both awful religious theocracies that want to exterminate the other side
- Israel tends to leave citizens from other countries in peace, whereas Hamas has shown no mercy to germans or british citizens they’ve captured
- Israeli soldiers don’t rape and parade prisoners
- Israel has however been brutalizing Palestinians, with evidence of individual soldiers killing Palestinian children at random. It doesn’t seem to be Doctrine though. Israel also has Apartheid Structures discriminating against Palestinians
- The People captured by Hamas mostly were in a Zone that the UN has declared to be illegally occupied by Israel
- There are Reports of Hamas Fighters going around and rounding up civilians for mass-executions
So yeah, it is a really really complicated Situation with no clear good or bad side. My personal stance on this is:
- I hope the Israeli Military can free the hostages taken by Hamas and bring the Perpetrators of the Massacres we hear about to justice (if the Reports of the Massacres are true)
- I am afraid that the hard-line anti-Palestinian Government of Israel will use this as an excuse to terrorize Palestinians and make them suffer
- I hope that in the End the internationally recognized and agreed-upon borders will be restored. I do hope however, that it will not happen as a Consequence of this military action, as it would embolden the use of Terrorism, Massacres and Hostage-Taking as a negotiation Tactic.
It’s been a long time since I’ve read such a sensible comment from this situation.
To OP, I don’t know how to put it, but I feel there’s no real side to pick, expect for zealots and fanatics. A colonizing oppressive state is 150% wrong. Execution of civilians and exploiting your people misery to lead them to a theocratic disaster is 150% wrong.
I’m from a both jew and muslim family and… I’m glad they feel the same way.
When Isreal openly advocates for Jews of other nationalities to come illegally occupy land that has supposedly been set aside for Palestinians they’re doing so to displace and replace them. How many resolutions about Palestine have been vetoed by only the US and Isreal with the rest of the world unilaterally telling Israel to cut it out? Shit, this one is from 7 years ago and was one of 18(!!!) similar resolutions against Isreal that year…
What Isreal is doing is genocide. I don’t for a minute condone all the methods Hamas is employing, but what’s happening is a predictable response from an increasingly desperate people
Morally, it’s a complicated situation.
Geopolitically, Israel probably has the support of most Western nations simply due to the fact that they engage in diplomacy and have proper decorem, with a government system that is a relatively modern system despite political leanings.
Additionally, Israel has a better human rights record DOMESTICALLY than Palestine and the Gaza region. It’s still dominated by religion, terrorist leaders, and its own population’s semi-justified bitterness. Freedom of expression and freedom of press is heavily restricted, just like any other Islamic religious state in the middle east.
The sole responsibility of the escalation and subsequent destabilization of the region lies with Hamas. The sole responsibility of the withdrawal of Palestinian aid from countries like Austria, lies with Hamas.
And with all the videos popping up over the treatment and killing of Israeli civilians, it’s hard for the Western world, and especially Western governments to garner the sympathy for the Palestinian people that they had 1 week ago.
Both sidesing isn’t correct, whataboutism isn’t correct, blindly supporting either side isn’t correct, supporting efforts to contain the conflict is correct. The best way to do that is to monitor Israel’s progress in containing Hamas.
We know that Hamas hides in schools and civilian buildings, using their own civilians as a shield. That’s a warcrime it itself. So it’s going to be messy as hell.
The US sent the USS Gerald Ford into the Mediterranean as a deterrent. If any country starts to try to 3rd party the conflict, oh shit oh fuck WW1 vibes. That’s how tender this situation is.
And with 1 other active conflict in the world, this is shaky ground.
It’s not complicated. One side is doing a genocide, the other is resisting it. Screw everyone saying this is a complicated issue, it’s not. The only thing complicated about it is trying to justify it when you’re on the side of the Illegal Occupation of Palestine, because yes, it’s really ‘complicated’ to try and spin that like they’re not overwhelmingly in the wrong.
You’re right. There’s zero Jewish representation in the Arab world while Arabs make up about 20% of the Israeli population (and hold positions of power within the country). Israel is a tolerant society while saud, Qatar, etc. are largely intolerant of Jewish existence (they genocided their own Jewish populations).
You said they’re both pieces of shit and then went on to outline how one group doesn’t commit the atrocities of the other group, and generally just wants to exist. They’re not the same.
People on both sides just want to exists. Palestinians are suffocating under the occupation and vote for the “fuck them” party. Palestinians bite on the hand that’s hitting them and then Israelis vote for the “fuck them” party. Israelis bomb everything from apartments to hospitals in Gaza every now and then and Palestinian women get harassed at check points when they have to open the trunk of their car for soldiers.
This thing happening is beneficial to both parties in power to maintain power so going back to the status quo is actually very likely after Israel carpet bombs Gaza and rolls over them with tanks.
I mean, this is bad. It’s bad for everyone. It’s going to make everything 10x more tense and break down trust that Palestinians have been building with Israelis over the last 20 years. Even 40% of the left of the Knesset said they would be open for a government with Palestinian parties, up from 10% in 2017.
Then Hamas is royally fucking over West Bank Palestinians since they closed the check points and people can’t get to work, meet friends and vice versa for Palestinians living under Israeli rule.
I personally it’s wrong to support either since both violate human rights but please, doing something bad one time over 3 days is absolutely nothing compared to doing the same over 3 months for 70 years.
TBF they didn’t say they were equally shit, just that they both were.
I could be tall and be 6’2" or 7’, still tall in both cases, but one is taller.
It’s also ok to support neither or to say it’s too complicated to pick a side.
Speaking as an Israeli, both sides are fuckwits.
Don’t support either side.Our fight in this world, is not against islam, it’s against religion.
Jim jeffries.
Support critical rational evidence based thinking, and you made the world a tiny bit better.
If you are comfortable with your understanding of the situation and arguing for whichever side you choose to support instead of just refusing to hear anything to the contrary then support whoever you want.
Just know this isn’t like a sports team where there’s only superficial differences. It’s also ok to say I’m not informed enough to take one side or the other, or maybe only lean one way. You can point to unethical behavior on both sides, but I think it’s not unreasonable for people to hold one side more at blame than the other. Look into the history of the region and the ongoing discussion.
Thanks for being perhaps the only comment here trying to be helpful to those who aren’t deeply familiar with the conflict.
I think an important emphasis here is that people shouldn’t accept explanations of the situation that make things easy to understand.
Support peace. It is the only correct stance. There is zero reason for conflict, find a peaceful resolution.
Peace can only be achieved once one side has been destroyed, for the simple fact that neither can tolerate the others existence.
I wish peace was a viable option, but it just isn’t.
Israeli people and Palestinian people both have a legitimate claim to live in the land surrounding Jerusalem. Palestinians are mostly muslim, and there are other muslim places to live. Israeli people are mostly jewish, and there are no other jewish places to live. That said, religion isn’t ethnicity. Palestinians may be the same religion as other muslims, but they’re not the same race. Just like black americans are mostly christian, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same race as white americans. Israeli people can’t be guaranteed fair treatment elsewhere. Palestinian people have a right to live in their homes.
Israeli and Palestianian people both have a valid and important need to live in the holy land. So the simple solution is, they should both live there. That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.
I don’t think the correct answer is “support” or “don’t support”, because that’s too broad. I think the correct answer is to support the people’s rights, and support the government’s desire for safety for its people, but not to support the government’s treatment of palestinians.
That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.
Bro/sis you took the words off my tongue.
Nonbinary sib.
I don’t think religion is just a justification for owning any land. That’s kind of a backwards take. Regressive, really.
Huh. Okay that makes Sense to me. Thank you!
Also a lot of both Jews and Arabs just hate the other side so it’s not really the govt problem here.
Dog shit vs. cat shit; neither Israel nor Hamas give a shit about the well-being, territorial integrity or human rights of the other’s people. Now, as for Ukraine and Russia the latter is obviously in the wrong- anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.
Here’s the thing, at the core of it, neither the people living in the israelian part nor the ones living in the palestinian one are really at fault here. The general public in general has no time for petty politics, being to busy to make a life. What you really want to blame are the agitators, the people who make it their life to create issues where there are none.
The majority of the population on both sides just want to live their own life in peace and they are not allowed to. So if you want to side wkth someone, side with them.
Blame the politicians who promote discord and occupation, blame the guerillas who attack innocent civilians, blame the religious proponents who spread hatred and bile. And plead with the general public to stop being such a bunch of pussies and actually put a stop to all the warmongering for everyone’s sake. Which is something we should all do, everywhere. But we won’t because we’re all pussies as well.
We’re not pussies; we’re poor.
By the way we trash talk on the internet, i’d say we’re pretty rich… in spirit.
Being for a very large group of people is illogical because (with the noteable exception of groups whose membership is defined solely by the actual actions of the members, i.e. " people who have commited gruesome murders") the group doesn’t need to have that many people for there to be an absolute certainty that at last one of its members are complete total shits, by which point a reductionist “supporting a group” ends up in part being “supporting some people who are complete total shits” and if you have any principles you don’t really lead your support in such a vague and open-ended way that you’re supporting such people.
The only reasons for a person to be for a group of people such as a nation are emotional, either tribalism or emotional reacting to things you hear about “them” or done to “them” (and not having the intellectual filters to read said “them” as reductionist bollocks), which is why Propaganda works so well in this domain.
By the way, this logic also applies to being against a group, which is the core of a lot of “-isms” such as racism (again, from some complete total shits there is a generalization to all members of a group not defined by their actions), making the person against the group be de facto against some very good people.
Being against doing bad shit, without the reductionism, obfuscation and and dehumanization of looking it as “sides” rather than people, is probably the only logical thing to do as there you have a path from morably reprehensible actions to the people who did them without diffusing to meaninglessness the actual judgments about “specific people who chose to do or not do certain things”.
PS: By the way, this is also why I dislike news about “Company X/Government Y did bad thing” - the company or government are not self-aware entities with agency, it’s people in positions of power there making the choices and I think we would have a much better world if the Press did its job and named names rather than willfully going along with the diffusing and obfuscating of responsability.
This conflict is so ridiculously complicated.
Short answer: Sure, why would you need our approval anyway.
Longer answer: it’s a complicated conflict where shitty things are done by both sides and it’s probably not as simple as supporting one side over the other all the time.
I’d say a lot of it is politicians being political for their own gains and normal people (Israeli and Palestinian) getting fucked. But who am I eh?
I support the rights of the Palestinian and Israeli people who just want to live in peace to do that. I do not support Hamas or the Israeli Army committing atrocity after atrocity at the behest of their political leaders.
