It is true that pit bulls make up a hugely disproportionate number of reported dog attacks, it’s also true that they are especially dangerous and have caused the most deaths by dog bite.
What many of these statistics fail to account for are environmental factors (pit bulls tend to be the most abused and most regularly abandoned dogs because of dog fighting and also because they are just a handful to properly train and care for.), it is also very difficult to gather accurate data on breed specific attacks/aggression because while pit bulls are the highest reported in most dog bite statistics, they are also not a breed as much as a group of breeds that includes:
The American Pit Bull Terrier
The American Staffordshire Terrier
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and
The American Bully
A study found that dogs classified as Pit Bulls only had 43.5% DNA from Pit Bull-type ancestry.
The study, carried out in two shelters in California and Arizona, also found that 62% of dogs labeled as Pit Bulls had less than a 50% DNA concentration from Pit Bull-type ancestry, Pit Bull facts and statistics show.
Identifying the right breed of dog in attacks and death is incredibly difficult. This is why the CDC stopped collecting breed-specific data in dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) in 1998.
The fact that there’s no official data to go by makes it even harder to separate myths from facts regarding Pit Bull attacks in the US.
Okay cool, so pits might make headlines more because of their strength and ability to inflict fatal wounds easier than other breeds but that goes for most large dogs.
German Shepherds had a similar stigma back when Americans were still xenophobic toward German immigrants and there were similar attitudes around that breed in the mid twentieth century. Prior to WWII Pit Bulls were a working class icon and were as much or more known for their reputation as great working dogs and loyal and loving family dogs as fighting dogs or vicious guard dogs.
Pit Bulls were bred for a wide variety of reasons and selected for many different traits but like most dogs they were foremost bread for physical traits and secondly for their temperament toward humans.
So what happened?
Racism it’s always racism.
No new owner may settle in the area so long as they possess such a dog. Critics argue that these bans are not based on sound scientific or statistical evidence—that pit bulls pose no greater risk than any other breed of dog. Advocates of these laws urge that the bans are crucial to protect the public health and safety from dangerous dogs. Yet, perhaps these concerns have less to do with dogs and more to do with the individuals who own them. Breed-specific legislation may be being used as a new form of redlining to keep minorities out of majority-white neighborhoods.
“We don’t want those people here,” a city council member said of the bans. Strong cultural ties exist between pit bull dogs and the Black community. The same is true of the Latino community. Research undertaken here to investigate this claim suggests that people of color are perceived to be the most likely owner of this breed of dog. While at the present time, actual ownership data is not available, if true ownership resembles the perceived distribution measured here, such a finding may form the basis for a legal claim. Under new law, breed-specific legislation could be challenged under the Fair Housing Act if it can be shown that these laws are disproportionately excluding minority groups.
-The Black Man’s Dog: The Social Context of Breed Specific Legislation, by Ann Linder
https://law.lclark.edu/live/files/32171-25-1-third-articlepdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6107223/
https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/javma_000915_fatalattacks.pdf
100% do not trust any dog until they are proven to be friendly - regardless of breed. People will walk their aggressive dogs off leash and be like “no it’s ok they’re friendly” as they run you down in the park.
That’s totally reasonable, this post was in response to a shitty meme posted last night.
Yeah, I saw that. :yea:
Racist :brainworms: like that unfortunately dig in pretty deep in society.
the racism could definitely be one of the reasons it happened in the us but there are pit bull bans in a lot of countries where the dogs don’t have strong cultural ties to minority groups.
is it not more likely that people assume they are dangerous because they were bred to fight? whether that is true or not it seems understandable.
As I already addressed they were bred for a variety of reasons and even the “fighting dog” trope is a misrepresentation of a behavioral trait - gameness - that isn’t actually inherently aggression. In fact, even fighting dogs that showed aggression toward their handlers were almost always put down.
Dogs aren’t bred to fight they’re abused and conditioned into being aggressive toward other specific animals.
Gameness plus powerful jaw equals bad times. The arguments pit owners make are the same as open carry people - it’s just the owner, it’s environmental, etc. They’re dangerous animals and should be regulated as such.
Most dogs greater than 40 lbs have the capacity to severely injure adults and children despite not having the jaw strength of Pitbulls.
I’ve seen a lot of housing providers put weight restrictions on dogs. That policy seems like a reasonable and less biased compromise.
i don’t really feel like there is a real difference in the differentiation you made there
Game is the dog that won’t quit fighting, the dog that’ll die in the ring, the dog that’ll fight with two broken legs
if that is a breedable trait it seems fair to me to say they have been bred for fighting (not exclusively)
It’s a trait that comes from the terrier side, and is most often naturally directed towards prey. If your thing is catching rodents with your face, you want to be able to take some bites to the face without immediately giving up going home. Even with selective breeding for dog-dog aggression, most dogs bred for fighting aren’t willing to fight another dog to the death and are culled or sold after being tested.
I have a dog that was seized from a huge fighting ring, is pretty scarred up, and is the undisputed wrestling champion whenever she plays with her dog friends, but her bloodlust is mostly reserved for the neighborhood rats these days.
There are plenty of factors that can contribute to this though. A trait that makes them more resilient in the ring doesn’t necessarily mean they are more naturally aggressive.
If we are to apply the same standards of materialism to all beings (which, to an extent, I believe we should) we should acknowledge that it is easier to manipulate someone into violence than it is to select for physical genetic traits. Therefore, it follows that the aggression is trained, and the capability to inflict damage is bred.
Most mammals tend to have complex social bonds especially pack animals like the ancestors of domestic dogs. Selective breeding has only occurred for a tiny fraction of the evolution of the bond between humans and canines.
A trait that makes them more resilient in the ring doesn’t necessarily mean they are more naturally aggressive.
i never said it did. i was just responding to you saying they aren’t bred to fight
if we split it into propensity for violence & capacity to inflict violence then there is no doubt pits have a lot more of the latter than most dogs and the former is basically unprovable either way
we should acknowledge that it is easier to manipulate someone into violence than it is to select for physical genetic traits.
doesn’t mean you can’t do both though, people have definitely bred dogs with the intention of making them better pit fighters
Idk probably shouldn’t have got into this cause i don’t have strong feelings either way about dangerous dog bans
Okay so what you should take away from this is that pit bulls are used as a dog whistle and a propaganda tool and they’re no more dangerous than huskies or german shepherds or even standard poodles (who are actually severely prone to random aggression because of inbreeding and selecting purely for aesthetics over all else).
https://canineperspectivechicago.com/poodle-training-profile/
These dogs are known for being extremely intelligent, which makes them easy to train. But, owners must be careful not to encourage mischievous behaviors, as they will stick.
Poodles are not typically aggressive animals, but they can develop anxiety that may lead to aggressive behaviors.
When these dogs get anxious, they may also get fearful, which can cause them to look at everyone as an enemy. They can also suffer from separation anxiety if they are apart from their owners for too long.
Another potential behavioral issue for Poodles is that they tend to assert dominance over both people and other dogs. They need to be heavily socialized so they recognize others as companions.
When they’re being trained, poodles need a firm hand. They need an owner who’s willing to strictly correct unacceptable behaviors. But they also need kindness and fairness. Being cruel or physically punishing your Poodle will only exacerbate existing problems and possibly cause them to develop anxiety or aggression.
The whole point of this post is that pit bull hysteria is rooted in racism and classism.
telling someone you’re talking to what they need to takeaway from a conversation is great craic. going to start doing that. I will stick with the opinion i have formed in my own brain for now though
im sure there are cultural and racist reasons behind the way certain dogs are targeted as dangerous but i also think people are just scared of the high capacity for violence of certain breeds, and that’s understandable
other dog breeds not thought of as dangerous definitely have high levels of aggression but if they’re not as physically capable at inflicting violence it’s not as worrisome
maybe it should be tho
telling someone you’re talking to what they need to takeaway from a conversation is great craic. going to start doing that. I will stick with the opinion i have formed in my own brain for now though
But the point of the post was that there is probably more behind the scenes racism/classism regarding opinions on what dogs are considered violent than physical attributes. I don’t think the OP was trying to start a struggle session about exactly which dogs are more capable of doing violence or the severity of the damage they could do, just that there is a fair amount of “panic” voiced about one thing openly that might be more about something else.
they’re no more dangerous than huskies or german shepherds or even standard poodles
How do you square this with your argument that there is no good data available? This seems to me like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. You’re making an assertion (with no data) while dismissing all of the best data that’s actually available for being imperfect.
My understanding is that pits have a different style of biting. They clamp down and don’t let go for minutes, while thrashing from side to side to rip flesh. It’s inherited from their history as bull-baiting dogs. This makes them more dangerous than dogs of even a similar size and strength.Dangerousness and aggressiveness are not the same thing. A rubber band gun is more likely to accidentally discharge than a firearm, but that doesn’t make it more dangerous. It doesn’t mean you can’t love your guns or your dogs, just respect their danger.
My understanding is that pits have a different style of biting. They clamp down and don’t let go for minutes, while thrashing from side to side to rip flesh.
When dogs attack something to kill it, they all do this. Every breed.
My understanding is that pits have a different style of biting. They clamp down and don’t let go for minutes, while thrashing from side to side to rip flesh. It’s inherited from their history as bull-baiting dogs. This makes them more dangerous than dogs of even a similar size and strength.
this is just how dogs kill prey - they clamp on and thrash to try and break their necks. every single breed does this, even during play, except where the behavior has been trained out. hell, you can get most dogs to do this by just playing tug-of-war with them, with a rope.
pits are just not unique. any well-founded fears people have of them apply to dogs as a whole. there’s no excuse for wholesale slaughter.
Anecdotes aren’t data, but my personal experience with pitties is that they’re super sweet with friendly humans, but super aggressive with other animals. One of my good friends had two pitties, both sweet dogs. They chased squirrels, but that was never a problem. But one of my other friends went out of town and left her goats with my friend to take care of. They were in a separately fenced area of her yard from the dogs. The dogs jumped the fence and killed both of the goats. I also had a neighbor’s pit bull get off leash, get into my yard, and chase my chickens, killing one of them before we could get him under control.
I’m sure the aggression towards other animals can be trained out of them, but I don’t think most owners do it. I agree with the effort post, though; I don’t think pitties are more dangerous than other large dogs on the whole, and that the moral panic over them is associated with racism. I also tend to think most dog owners (of all breeds) are pretty negligent, and that dog ownership is mostly not a great thing.
. I also tend to think most dog owners (of all breeds) are pretty negligent, and that dog ownership is mostly not a great thing.
Not something you can say very loud these days (at least in places I’ve lived)… But kinda sorta yeah…
Dogs should not be kept as an accesoire, but that is what most people have them for. as a lifestyle “object”. People have owned Dog since we started walking on two feet, but I think the modern culture of owning dogs, is very different than it used to be even 15 years ago. at least where I live.
I grew up rural. Our successive family dogs always had lots of space to run around.
I can hardly understand having a dog in an urban area now. Even cats are sometimes a bit of a yikes.
I don’t think environment is the biggest issue, as long as the owner is willing to put in the work to train, socialize, and enrich their dog. Realistically though, it’s much more effort in urban areas than others, and very very few owners are up to the task
I agree mostly, but I say fuck you to anyone that owns a large dog in a tiny appartment near the top of building.
Also, I think most dogs would go out far more than twice a day if they could choose. Two full half hour walks is barely anything for an animal like that.
I personally don’t think it is possible for me to care for a dog and hold a fulltime job, provided the dog can’t go on walks by itself or come with me to work. So I am probably never going to own a Dog again. As much as I like them.
the dog can’t go on walks by itself
I knew urban dogs, they could use the Metro and pedestrian crossings. Back when it was common to have dogs walk around by themselves. Dogs are far smarter than people give them credit for.
they could use the Metro
This is absolutely the elephant in the room, and the sources I cited go to great lengths to stress that what gets reported and what gets called a pit bull heavily skews the data.
They were bred for gameness, which is the willingness to push past pain to continue the attack.
I’ve seen one be kicked by a horse multiple times, only for it to get back up and continue the attack before dying of it’s wounds after several minutes of this.
Normal dog breeds retreat when injured. That’s not normal behavior. People blaming that on racism are deluded.
There’s no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. Breed bans are dumb.
moralising dogs is silly. they have no higher order thinking
but the idea that any violence committed by an animal is necessarily a failure on their owners part is also silly
animals can and do commit acts of violence without any prior warning. they could be scared or traumatised or misunderstanding something as an act of aggression. or they could just be angry
the idea that you can reliably train the possibility for unwanted violence out of every animal is hubris
“they have no higher order of thinking.”
Can you elaborate?
i actually sort of disagree with myself being so black and white about that having read it back, cause i do think smart animals like dogs have some moral instincts
but while they have some abstractive ability to understand fairness or whatever it’s not on the same level as humans, and trying to imprint human morality on them is silly
e- please no-one try to engage me on the topic of free will, i don’t want to play
Great post, and while I totally get how there’s so much racist and classist propaganda in anti-pit bull legislation and rhetoric… I’ve personally experienced enough close calls with pit bulls that I’m still gonna keep my distance. However, one thing I’ve learned from the discourse here is if I wasn’t comfortable with my kid petting a pit bull before, I should also be just as cautious with most other dog breeds, too.
The only pit bull I hate shouts about “Cuba Libre!” to concert audiences in Miami.
Excellent post!
christ y’all, it’s amazing how as a forum for marxists we are so hard-headed on seeing past propaganda and manufactured percpetions to understand the underlying truths and material conditions, yet so many people are failing to apply those basic principles here. even the CDC study which found that bully breeds make up a higher percentage of bites didnt recommend breed-specific legislation because their data sources were heavily skewed by inaccurate breed reporting and the over-reliance on media reports for data. and simply because BSL doesn’t work to address the underlying problem!
"A 2014 peer-reviewed summary on dog bite risk and prevention by the American Veterinary Medical Association stated: “Given that breed is a poor sole predictor of aggressiveness and pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention.”[33]
In 2014, new statistical evidence emerged regarding the province-wide ban on “pit bulls”, more specifically the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier, in the Canadian province of Ontario. Since the ban had been implemented, dog bites involving pit bull types had dropped considerably as their populations decreased in the province’s largest city Toronto,[35] yet overall dog bites hit their highest levels this century in 2013 and 2014.[36] Statistical evidence published in Global News implicates several other dog breeds had contributed to the rise, stating that “Toronto’s reported dog bites have been rising since 2012, and in 2013 and 2014, reached their highest levels this century, even as pit bulls and similar dogs neared local extinction.”
Full disclosure: I am the owner of Pitbull mutt who I got from the pound in a poor and heavily black part of atlanta. My dog was fantastic around other dogs for about a year and a half, then one day attacked my friend’s dog out of nowhere. Her dog survived, I paid her bills, and now I have a good fence so my dog doesnt escape and she hasnt bit another dog for at least 6 years.
My dog is a puddle around humans and has never literally once harmed a human. she barks like hell at anyone passing by but as soon as she meets someone she licks them and demands pets. she is also fantastic on walks and never even barks at dogs passing by.
also. one person was trying to make the point that even a few dog bite attacks are worth banning breess because of the “small enjoyment” owners get. to which i say to you sir:
-
i have severe depression and my dog makes me not to want to die most days. i would say that’s more than small.
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dogs also enjoy life and have a right to live in it! if a person commits a crime should they be exterminated? it’s absolute nonsense logic.
she barks like hell at anyone passing by but as soon as she meets someone she licks them and demands pets.
She’s just loudly demanding attention. Especially if she does the roo “bark” at them. That’s another thing I think people don’t realize, dogs have a language and their vocalizations can have a wide variety of motivators.
half of hexbear apparently be like:
news: “black people are prone to violence and theft”
fuck off I dont believe that shit
news: “and also their dogs are like that too”
:so-true:
I am the owner of Pitbull mutt who I got from the pound
:order-of-lenin:
People who rescue pits from the certain death of shelters (pits are the most euthanized dogs) are true heroes.
christ y’all, it’s amazing how as a forum for marxists we are so hard-headed on seeing past propaganda and manufactured percpetions to understand the underlying truths and material conditions, yet so many people are failing to apply those basic principles here.
this is off-topic but threads like this one do a lot to show how we’re not nearly so good at seeing past propaganda or at understanding the material conditions that reveal truths about the world. these threads should lead to self-crit.
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The racial context between dogs, dog breeds and their owners is completely different in South Africa. Which makes this post really weird to digest.
Though I can definitely see how in an American/British and/or Anglo context what you are saying is true and the parallels between that and race “science” nonsense.
Ok someone informed the that this effortpost by the OP is in response to some cryprofash meme involving pitbulls that has since been removed, this makes a ton more sense then.
:kitty-cri-potato: is becoming one of my favourite emotes
Back in the 90’s over here German shepards had a very bad reputation. My grandad had a couple and they were the most gentle, soppiest doggies you can imagine. I mean yeah they were big and strong but frankly the only way they were gonna hurt us as kids would be by pulling too hard on the lead and yoinking us off our feet.
I’ve always figured it’s basically the same deal with pit bulls, that it’s largely fucking nonsense and a dog’s temprament is gonna mostly be down to nuture so it’s good to see the sources here seem to back that up.
When I lived in a medium US city 99% of pitbulls I saw were dragging their owners (tiny white women) down the street and completely out of control. I don’t think large dogs should be allowed to be adopted from shelters without a lot regulation and shit. People should have to prove they have experience training dogs and that they have enough outdoor and indoor space before they can get one. That being said, the wildly varying sources here for things like bite force and other statistics along with the knee jerk comparison with racism is one of the areas where I diverge from the generally online left. I get that the way pitbulls are seen and banned from apartments goes alongside the way that black people in america have been discriminated against and persecuted, but that doesn’t mean that the dogs aren’t dangerous. Almost all pitbull stories involve “the sweetest kindest calmest little family boy” who has “never done anything like this before”. Training is a huge part of why dogs get violent but when you selectively breed a dog for certain traits you get an animal who has violent impulses along with the physical capabilities to act on them. I can promise you that having been charged by multiple escaped pitbulls, witnessing FOUR separate attacks on dogs and humans over the past couple of years, and having been around dozens of pitbulls that the real issue with them isn’t as much “bite force” or that they clench and don’t let go, the issue is the tendency for totally spontaneous aggression towards humans and other animals. It’s something unpredictable, terrifying, and that I’ve only witnessed in pitbulls. Even the well trained ones are a bomb that could go off any time. Just my two scents as a person who works with animals professionally. EDIT: I don’t think it’s the dogs fault. Humans are responsible for their breeding and they are really just a product of shitty eugenics.
That being said, the wildly varying sources here for things like bite force
what wildly varying sources? you’re doing the climate denier thing of alluding to a disagreement among experts without any proof of the claim in order to spread FUD over, in this case, a dog breed. you’re then following it up with some anecdotes that you claim make you a qualified expert on this topic. even if we simply believe that you’re telling the truth, you haven’t supported the fact that anyone else should trust your expertise.
don’t do this shit.
Not directed at the OP and some other people have touched on these things but I wanted to follow them up:
no bad dogs just bad owners
“pitties aren’t bad, just those people who don’t know how to train them”
If there is such a racialized view toward pit bull ownership, be careful not continue it without blaming the dog. Certain breeds are harder than others to have as pets for sure, and unprepared owners exist in all demographic corners of society. But it’s usually not one or the other, and to be honest sometimes a dog, especially a traumatized rescue, really just cannot be handled by a person, regardless of the effort or time they put in. What do you do then, keep it anyway or back to the kill shelter? Especially in this hyperdrive no-hobby economy, we don’t just have a billion Cesar Milan protégés able to adopt every difficult dog. IDK just something that caught my attention.
they’re great toward people but have very strong gameness/prey drives.
time is a flat circle, welcome back to the outdoor cat struggle session.
This is not specific to pits, but when I think about large untrained dogs I think about their effect on other species. Dogs represent the third most destructive mammal behind rodents and cats, and one documented case showed that a single German shepherd in New Zealand killed over 500 endangered kiwis. They’re even driving out other predators like foxes, hunting in feral packs. We are going through what has been identified as a mass extinction event, fueled by climate change, industrial agriculture, and habitat destruction by invasive species.
So beyond dog bites, large dogs with high prey drives have to be considered in the greater context. It’s hard to grapple with because we love our pets - I have two large dogs, one a pit mix (and indoor cats). But I never let them off leash unless it’s a fully contained dog park that I can watch them constantly. I don’t know what I’ll do after they’re gone in terms of adopting more, but I’m still looking/hoping for good ways to help combat pet effects on biodiversity short of banning more destructive breeds… or dispatching feral dogs in the wild 😕
I spoilered to keep the post manageable, but happy to discuss. I’m not saying these are right or even good takes but I figured I’d contribute at least.
But I never let them off leash unless it’s a fully contained dog park that I can watch them constantly
i have a pure border collie but she has trauma from being extremely neglected for 4 years before we got her (rescue). Unfortunately she’s very reactive to unknown people/dogs and bizarrely choosey about when that is with people. A lot of the time she loves people and loves attention but certain individuals she gets snappy with. She doesn’t really bite full on but she’s warning nibbled on me and her vet a couple times. She’s good with small dogs but dogs her size and bigger make her extremely nervous but she will play with them once she’s gotten to be around them a bit.
Bc of all that we don’t take her anywhere we dont have control of the environment. For the last two years since we’ve had her we’ve been socializing her and trying to work with her to feel safe and she’s made a lot of progress but I still wouldn’t trust her around strange dogs and people without keeping an eye on her and I never take her leash and harness off her. Everyone is always like “oh you can take her leash off” but I need to know i can control her, it’s most likely just being over cautious but i’d rather be that than let her run around and get triggered by something.
neglected for 4 years before we got her (rescue)
:rat-salute: People who rescue dogs from shelters are comrades
It was super fucked uo tbh. They left her in a back yard unattended for years. she will probably forever have food security issues bc of that. A lot of her issues she’s gotten better about in the last couple years but that one idk what to do about lol she’s holding strong on it
Great post, really hitting the nail on the head. Also, I love all dogs, except for cop dogs.
Cop dogs are victims too
its more like, I don’t like dogs when they are being cops and doing cop things, but if they were rescued I would still like the dog.
when they are being cops and doing cop things
Again they are victims, they don’t choose to be cop dogs only humans choose to be cops. All cop dogs are victims.
