u/ThePeoplesBadger - originally from r/GenZhou
It seems that based on what I have read:
- WW1 and the foreign-backed civil war utterly destroyed Russia and its population, but the Bolsheviks won out after a very long and drawn out period of devastation.
- Lenin introduced the NEP to begin to build the basis for an eventually socialist economy by developing industry and agriculture with similar practices to other capitalist countries (but without imperialism)
- There was disagreement in the Bolshevik leadership after Lenin’s strokes and passing on how to move forward. Some top party leaders suggested moving forward “at a snail’s pace,” but it seems that Stalin had a very “yes we can” attitude, introduced five year plans, and completely revolutionized the country/countries in socialist construction.
- When Stalin died, Khrushchev turned around and in his “secret speech,” condemned Stalin and hung all blame on Stalin for all of the problems in the USSR.
- Khrushchev initiated changes and reforms that were seen by China as extremely problematic and revisionist, contributing to the Sino-Soviet split.
- China followed some very similar approaches to building socialism as the USSR but also approaches unique to the material nature of China, hence “socialism with Chinese characteristics.”
- Mao dies in the 70s (right? I could have the dates wrong) and the torch is passed to Deng Xiaoping, and China opens up to foreign trade and meets with Nixon and China becomes an economic power on the international market.
- It seems like since then, China has been working deliberately and exactingly toward eliminating poverty, raising the living standards, and building up industries and trade across the entire spectrum.
Please correct any misunderstandings I may have above, as these are the understandings that form the basis of my questions.
- What were the reforms initiated by Khrushchev?
- What were the reforms initiated by Deng?
- How/why were the Khrushchev reforms revisionist?
- Were the Deng reforms revisionist, and regardless, why or why not?
u/EarDry9811 - originally from r/GenZhouI’m going to get down-voted to hell for this (And it might not directly answer your question), but here it goes…
I used to hang out in ultra-leftist forums so I’m giving you an answer from a pure anti-revisionist MLM perspective. Both Khrushchev and Deng were revisionist. If you talk to an ultra, they’ll actually tell you Khrushchev was more warranted in his revisionism since he had material concerns where as Deng’s reasons for deviating from Mao’s vision were purely ideological and not material.
Also, a lot of ultra’s will look at MZT as a revisionism of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism (Maoism or MLM for short).
NOTE: I’m aware this is a Dengist sub so I tried my best not to offend anyone. To those who want to downvote me… just know that I’m done being an ultra and am in no way promoting this line of thought although it was how I developed my base of fundamental theory so I am biased toward it.
I just wanted to give a different perspective. I’m very open to refutations to the arguments ultras make. I never got to hear them when I hung around ultra-leftist forums because those places are pretty much echo-chambers filled with really depressing people. I just ask that you please provide some sources when making counter-arguments.
Edit: Updated the link to a non-paywalled one, thanks to u/f_l_o_u_r for the help
u/ShittyInternetAdvice - originally from r/GenZhouThat sounds completely backwards to me. If anything Deng and China had more of a material reason to open up than the USSR (much more backwards productive forces and falling behind their neighbors in East Asia which was especially problematic given the rapidly growing population, far higher levels of extreme poverty, and diplomatically isolated with very few close allies)
u/HighWaterMarx - originally from r/GenZhouYeah, my eyebrow raised when I read that line for the same reason.
u/Material_Dog_4171 - originally from r/GenZhouGood to have other opinions on genzhou even if I disagree with you !
u/Bubbly-Walk-5615 - originally from r/GenZhouI’m gonna have to disagree with you there chief, considering what happened with stagnation in the 70s and 80s then eventually the 90s in the Soviet sphere, I think Deng’s reforms were very material.
u/literalshillaccount - originally from r/GenZhouI’m curious as I’m new to leftism in general. What caused your upbringing in ultra-leftism and what made you turn to MLM?
u/EarDry9811 - originally from r/GenZhouI got grifted by one too many “leftists” who kept promoting anti-communism. Chomsky is one that comes to mind but there’s also a lot of younger people from the “Dirtbag” left who are really patsocs or just plain liberals. I also became disillusioned with the American left after Sanders dropped out the second time. Their ideologies had a lot of internal contradictions which became obvious after a while.
I eventually found Parenti whom resonated with me because he called out a lot of the hypocrisy of the leftists I’d encountered. In trying to learn more about Parenti I stumbled on ultra-leftist forums which ironically criticized him. I chatted with some of the members about their opinions and learned that although he’s a USSR and China sympathizer his writings aren’t really from a Marxist point of view. His work is still good and somewhat worth reading but the problem is that he rehabilitates the USSR on liberalism’s terms.
From there, I focused less on current politics and trying to change the system and more on unlearning my foundations (growing up in a capitalist society) so I can learn to think like a Marxist and understand the motivations which lead to the formation of the USSR and Marxist revolutions elsewhere.
Although ultra-leftism has it’s issues, I’ll admit that it’s a really fast track to developing a fundamental base of Marxist theory. Ultras are really good when it comes to discussion of theory and you’ll quickly learn to think like a Marxist just by being around them. However, some will question their practicality and they can get very tribalistic.
TLDR: Got fed up with the current state of American Leftism, stumbled on Parenti, which led me to ultra-leftist forums. Learned a ton, but got tired of their tribalism and am now venturing out into the open.
Edit: I realized I didn’t answer your question about why I turned to MLM. MLM along with Third Worldism is kind of dominant among ultra-leftists (At least the ones I encountered), so you’ll get naturally exposed to it through osmosis.
u/RcKahler - originally from r/GenZhouI think he is just ML now… MLM is a little more… “complex”
u/EarDry9811 - originally from r/GenZhouI’m still trying to figure that one out. I find it funny how the extra M is so controversial here.
u/RcKahler - originally from r/GenZhouMLMs follow the ideas of Gonzalo, a “controversial” communist of Peru. While MLs can and do still follow Mao Zedong Thought, but not Gonzalo.
u/EarDry9811 - originally from r/GenZhouYeah, I’ve noticed any positive mention of his ideas here is a no no. Although many MLMs seperate his contributions to theory (synthesizing Mao’s works into an extension of ML) from his own application (and interpretation) of it in Peru which is referred to as Gonzalo thought. The latter is seen as contentious even in MLM circles.