Exactly. There’s plenty of salad available, but that’s not what I choose. What is this fantasy that it’s expensive to eat healthy? Legumes are literally 1/1000th the cost of beef per calorie. Yet people choose meat, because it’s delicious. Then they die of chronic illness. Instead of making fun of ourselves for being totally predictable dumb apes, we write these ridiculous articles.

I’m always happy to discuss socialism, anarchism, fascism, or any other topic in political philosophy, which I’ve spent half my life studying, but not with people who link PRC authoritarian propaganda. I’ve blocked you so don’t bother replying.

Why would people buy tons of useless garbage

Meat, cars, houses, fresh water, cell phones. That is the top of that list of ecological depredation. Billionaires for all their evil aren’t the ones eating over 50 billion animals per year. Yeah you read that right. It’s a large number.

reality is that the disproportionate consumption of the rich far outweighs the consumption of the working people

Unless by “rich” you mean “middle class Americans” you’re mathematically wrong by many orders of magnitude.

Now I’m down to kill the billionaires, very eager, but it won’t solve our ecological woes. Not even close.

Removed by mod

China’s economic system is called authoritarian capitalism. It has more billionaires than the United States.

Also, please don’t call China “socialist.” It’s offensive and feeds into the false right-wing narrative that socialism is fascistic.

I’m not blaming you. It’s a chicken and egg problem when it comes to any industry. The fact is that people like eating fish and pigs and cows, and we need them to stop. That’s the bottom line.

you’re arguing for a vote-with-your-wallet approach

You quoted someone else and then accused me of arguing for something I’m absolutely not. Did you reply to the wrong person? For the benefit of anyone who stumbles over this bizarre exchange, my question is super simple:

How will you convince 8 billion people to dramatically lower their standard of living?

Currently we are consuming about 2 earths worth of resources (if everyone lived like Americans it would be 20 earths). Obviously capitalism makes this worse, but the question remains. What then?

Once we abolish capitalism, this will raise standards of living. More people will want cars and air-conditioning and so on. More people will want to eat meat. So what’s the plan?

we are producing 1000 times the food we need

no we are not

You’re technically correct. It’s closer to 100, but my point stands.

The number of animals killed annually for human consumption is somewhere north of 50 billion. That’s 50 thousand million.

I want the billionaires dead as much as the next guy, but what you’re saying is not the mathematical reality, and while changing economic systems will lead to justice and fairness, it won’t even begin to solve our ecological problems. It might even worsen them, since our goal would be, presumably, to end poverty and increase standards of living.

Or is that not the plan?

We don’t produce 1.5 times the food we need, as you said. We produce 100 times the food we need. Know why? To feed the billions of sentient animals that are tortured to death each year in factory abattoirs. Do you have any idea how sustainable that is? It’s not. So…

You’ve taken a roundabout way to tell me that mass adoption of veganism (literally the only way to save the environment) unfortunately has nothing to do with our economic system.

• Every 3 calories of beef require at least 100 calories of legumes.
• Worse still, the average water footprint per calorie for beef is twenty times larger than for cereals and starchy roots.
• Add the methane and the nitrogenous runoff, and you have an ecological catastrophe.
• If we ended animal agriculture, 75% of all farmland could be rewilded tomorrow.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that’s woefully inadequate. We need between 2 and 20 earths just to maintain our current standard of living, and keep in mind this number rises as poverty falls.

The only and I mean the only solutions that can support our absurd population is

1. veganism
2. tech advancements bordering on magic

It’s just math. I wish things were otherwise, I really do. But that’s what we need to save the rainforests and oceans and wild fauna that are still clinging to existence. Everything else is ideology.

So, I assume you’re vegan? The ecology of this planet will collapse unless most of humanity stops consuming animal products. That or magic.

deleted by creator

deleted by creator

It’s a good meme, but in all seriousness, why do you think that without capitalism everyone will stop eating meat, driving cars, taking vacations, and having children?

Would we all be hemp-wearing, bicycle-riding vegans if not for capitalism? Unless people are willing to dramatically reduce their quality of life, we are fucked.

deleted by creator

Given that the environmental depredation of this planet is driven by

1. the farming of animal products,
2. the production and consumption of energy, and
3. the extraction and transformation of material resources,

can people explain why they believe that without capitalism everyone would be a vegan who doesn’t take vacations, use air conditioning, fly on airplanes, or drive a car? I also assume they’re wearing hemp and have no interest in fashion.

Keep in mind there are 8 billion people on this planet, so presumably they wouldn’t be having children either.

EDIT: the reply below completely ignores my question. Very few people seem to actually give a shit about the environment. It’s all just ideological posturing. And that is why we are fucked.

Plus, animal consumption is among the top three causes of ecological destruction on this planet. Do people think burgers only exist under capitalism? That palm oil and pig meat are an obsession of the super rich? It’s not a matter of efficiency (farming is already absurdly efficient). It’s just math. Like everyone will give up chicken nuggets to save the planet or something? Good luck with that. People are obdurate and gross.

Getting rid of capitalism is a step in the right direction, sure, but unless folks are willing to give up meat, cars, airplanes, and who knows what other amenities, we are still just as fucked.

It will actually change a lot. There’s a famous saying in physics: “Science makes progress one funeral at a time.”

Specifically, according to Max Planck: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

Obviously, politics is much more biased than physics, so deaths will have an even more progressive impact. Boomers (and Gen X) are ideologically bankrupt with views radically divergent from those of younger generations and scientists generally. The reasons are obvious: culture, wealth, lead poisoning, etc.

Removed by mod

This is the most fucked-in-the-head bullshit I’ve read today. Thanks.