I imagine other platforms like kbin would become popular in place of Lemmy. We’d likely see a similar dip and normalization from Reddit’s user base.
The world would probably look about the same as it is now. I like using Lemmy, but the absence of forum isn’t the end of the world I suppose
Relevant: https://github.com/mormaer/Mlem/issues/292
Seems the team got wind of it recently
When I do need a new phone, I’d go with either a fair phone or a used pixel device. Really the only thought I’d have on the hardware side is the compatibility with grapheneOS. I’d love to try out non-android Linux phones, but they’re just not there yet for my use case. Someday hopefully
I think that is a reasonable approach. I also reason personally that just not buying the eggs is better than the pasture raised eggs. That being said, my OP was about the theoretical on what is right and wrong, not the practical advice I’d tell others in their purchasing decisions.
Good discussion on how we ought to engage with people. 10/10 would do again
I am quite aware of each of the labels and their often times meaningless qualities. Have spent about 5 years in the activism space, although there’s always something new.
But I will say, each step is indeed better. You are right to point out that others will just buy the caged-chicken eggs as they’re cheaper. This tells me we need better legislation so standards are not up to struggling individuals, but enforced laws. But people will not vote for law makers nor will law makers introduce and vote on bills that are unpopular with people. We need more people to feel that cage-free is the default. This is obviously just a stepping stone, but it is a vital one.
Each step, while incremental, is vital to changing the world. There are a significant portion of people currently alive that will never change there ways unless given an easier solution. They ought to change, but we need to work with what we can for the time being. With that, we can advocate for policy changes, research in good alternatives, and bring about campaigns without the corporate sphere, even if it seems like we’re doing very little.
Even if the goal is the abolition of human and non-human interaction, we need logical steps to get there. Otherwise, we don’t move the world forward.
Yeah, green/ethical washing seems to be annoyingly more prevalent these days. One thing that you might be interested in, given your pluralist approach to ethics, is this strategy guide to the welfarist approach. It acknowledges that we need to change people’s mind, but also presents the idea that cultures change slowly so we should probably target easy to achieve goals (cage free -> pasture raised -> no slaughter ->). I will always tell people to just stop doing what they’re doing, but if I have to focus on a wide scale issue, i’ll focus on something achievable to get the ball rolling. After all, it’s very easy to go from flexitarian to vegetarian/vegan than it is to go from a carnist to a vegan.
Sorry, long post ahead:
I agree with points 2, 5, and parts of the others. But I disagree on specifics of a few of said points.
It is not necessary to consume animal products to meet or exceed nutritional and energy requirements. They are not necessary to clothe or shelter us.
It is true that humans can go without an animals byproducts and survive with ease. However, I will note that in an ideal scenario of no-slaughter and high-welfare laws, wool is a superior alternative to plastic clothing given how wasteful plastic products are. However, this is only relevant for cold parts of the world where normal cotton clothing is inadequate. I myself opt for plastic and second hand wool, but would rather have an option of a sheep in my care which would never encounter any harm if we are to continue to experience cold environments. Additionally, eggs specifically serve as a great means to care for non-human animals that do indeed need animal-based foods. Maybe in the future, lab grown meat will replace the need for this, but currently it seems to be the best option to reduce suffering overall. Finally, just because something is not necessary, does not mean we shouldn’t do it. If indeed my hypothetical care for a hen is only positive (nutritionally thriving, warm home, freedom to roam the yard to scavenge and perch, etc), then eating the non-fertilized eggs they produce is a neutral act. As with the example in the original post, if you were to use a dogs hair they let out from shedding as a coat, I would view that as a completely neutral option. Maybe slightly positive since it would be thrown out otherwise.
Using products they produce (vegetarianism) usually ends up with them still entering in the same suffering and premature death system because of economic incentives.
Usually, yes. but I do not advocate for this. I advocate for a future of companionship between humans and chickens that features either a commensalistic or mutualistic relationship. One where no one is harmed. Something along the lines of how people treat their dogs/cats now. I believe this is quite achievable with animal welfare laws.
We can’t take an “individualist” approach assuming that our specific way of doing things (such as a quaint family farm) would scale across billions of people.
Sure, a quaint farm wouldn’t scale across a billion people. But you do not need it to. I am specifically pointing to this being a good relationship, not that all people should have it. Similarly, I advocate for people to grow their own food. However, I understand that mass farming is necessary for plant foods to be grown for a majority of people. If we are to assume that my hypothetical situation features no harm to the chickens while giving them a great life (like I might give for my dog), then I see it as a net good.
Animals are sentient and prefer a state of relative wellbeing and satisfaction of natural instincts just like we do. Making excuses to violate animals does not align with principals of nonviolence and compassion for beings.
This is my biggest drop off in views. Non-human animals definitely do prefer a state of well being and do seem to have senses of individualism and other traits we value. However, it is important not to assign anthropomorphic ideas to them. For example, I know my dog loves to go outside and run around. If I were to give him full freedom and access to express his natural instincts, I would just let him outside to roam free. However, I know that I can give him a superior that features living in a warm area with access to food at standard times, frequent treats, and lots of time exercising outside with me or others present. I would view chickens in the same way I view said dog. An animal I ought to take care of while letting them express their instincts to a reasonable extent as to not harm them. So i’d give them a heated barn to protect them from the elements and predatory animals as well as provide nutritional assistance as foraging is not always ideal. During the day, they’d be free to roam the yard and fulfill their wishes.
I think it’s very important to acknowledge how awful living in the wild really is. Obviously, the current treatment of animals is worse, but I wouldn’t say we shouldn’t live with them as a part of our lives. Just a far better relationship featuring care and never harm.
I had a similar discussion here, if you’re not in a long conversation sorta mood. Nevoic and I talked about the relative merits of rights vs welfare approaches. I think my conclusion after speaking with them is that I still find utilitarian systems of practice to be more reasonable, but I understand and can empathize with the deontologists
I don’t agree that utilitarianism is pro-oppression by nature, especially when reasonable consideration is applied. As an example, you present the transition from exploitative practices (eggs/wool/etc) without harm to the same practices with harm. This being allowed with the justification that my pleasure is worth more than their pain (an argument you attribute to the utilitarian camp). However, that would be defined as egoism rather than the utilitarianism. Utilitarians would posit all beings capable of suffering or pleasure ought to be given adequate consideration for their relative abilities.
I think many rule based utilitarians, myself included, would find a reasonable course of action in our future, even with capitalism being the main force of economic action. For example, the pleasure one receives for consuming an egg is small, while the suffering in current industry practices is great. This would result in a severely bad hedonistic calculus from utilitarians, even if the egoists would love it.
I would argue that the deontological argument of “animals have innate rights” is considered in the utilitarian approach as well, even if it is presented differently. The argument from my point of view is that most animals, besides ourselves, clearly have the basic ability to thrive and suffer. That ability needs to be considered in our calculations. This, I would say, is the core tenant of utilitarianism. All who can suffer, ought not to have to suffer. All who can thrive, ought to be able to thrive. All who can provide these qualities to others, ought to do so to the best of their abilities.
Similarly, and more of a tangent on my personal views: I sit firmly in the negative utilitarian camp. I acknowledge that more good is better than neutrality, but clearly the removal of suffering needs to be the primary impetus for action. So I am extremely rarely in agreement with the idea that “the pleasure I get from this is more good than the pain you get is bad.” As in that, pleasure, especially smaller pleasures, are weighted more than suffering.
If I’m feeling beyond lazy:
If I have 10 minutes:
One minute warm up meal prep:
Protip: if you have an Aldi near you, they have very cheap mock meats and cheeses ($1-4) a pack. Just check for vegan logo as some have egg/milk.
Really neat perspective. I’ve thought that way previously as a pretty hard-line stance, and I think I incorporate it into the way I communicate to people about veganism. However, after hearing some of the critiques of Singer’s ethics, I find the bullet biting to be okay for me lol. Mostly because the situations are usually absurd and I have trouble thinking deontologically and personally love pragmatic approaches
Continued work on the gnome shell for desktop as well as phosh for mobile. I have no need for most apps on my phone, but I really need access to a stable interface allowing for basic photo, web, and maps functionality. IMO, phosh looks the best out of all the upcoming offerings.
I almost stopped using cronometer after a few months. Found out I was just using the CRDB labels that only required the testing for a few specific nutrients thus making me think I wasn’t doing enough. After switching to the whole foods with 70-80 nutrients listed from the NCCDB, I felt so much better. I wish cronometer advertised that as something to remember.
Hope it does well. I had issues with some of the ways they presented medical information in the first one (primarily their illustration on blood triglyceride levels), but I understand you have to rely on hyperbole and bold claims when you’re reaching a broad audience. Nuance is probably left for longer form discussion and talks with practicing physicians.
Look forward to seeing it. Especially with the big names that latched on.
Hello, I study nutrition and would love to share some light on recommendations for a healthy diet.
First as a disclaimer, I do not encourage people to look for specific micronutrients in their foods unless they find joy in doing so. Food and diet anxiety are huge issues and have created a dangerous diet culture which can cause people to quit diets or splurge on expensive supplements.
My general recommendation for people looking to go vegan is to consume 5+ servings of fruits and vegetables every day, several (1-4) servings of whole grains and legumes, some omega-3 rich oil or seed (1-3 tbsp), and if you want more calories, throw in a fatty nut or nut butter like peanuts/peanut bytter. Here’s an example:
Serving of legumes: ~1/5 block of tofu, 1/2 cup side of green peas, 1/2 cup of navy beans in a stew/chili
Serving of whole grains: 1 slice of 100% whole grain bread, ~60g of whole wheat pasta, 1/2 cup of rolled/steal cut oats
Serving of fruit: 1 orange/apple/banana, 1/2 cup of berries, 3-5 strawberries,
Serving of vegetables: 1 carrot (5-6 baby carrots), 1/2 cup of broccoli, 1/2 cup of spinach or other leafy greens (e.g., 1-2 outer leaves of a green lettuce head)
Serving of seed/oil: 1/4 cup of sunflower seeds, 2 tbsp of flax meal, 2 tbsp of hemp seeds, 1-2 tbsp of canola oil
If you do that every day with the addition of daily fortified foods like 1.5 - 2.5 cups of soy, almond, or milk, you’ll be perfectly suited to a sustainable healthy diet.
However, I know many people have trouble completing these goals every day since we are suited to processed diets, so just shoot to hit most of these goals and then throw a multivitamin in which might target
Generally, I see vegans miss out on a few nutrients as a whole such as Vit. D, B12, Omega 3s, and Zinc. However, nutritional deficiencies are usually found to be specific to the person. For example, if you eat beans regularly as a part of your diet, zinc is probably not an issue. If you cook with canola oil and eat flax meal with food every day, omega 3s are not a concern.
For that, this resource is very helpful! For those that worry about inadequacies, these individuals can find options from your list and add them to their diet as they try them out in recipes.
I think I share some of the same view points, although for different reasons.
One thing I wonder is if returning animals to their natural habitats is always the better option. This idea mostly comes from the shear magnitude of wild animal suffering. We like to think of nature as harmonious, but it is incredibly violent with death and suffering being a daily or evenly hourly threat. This happens in nature whether or not humans are involved.
With that said, I don’t think there is much I can do personally to prevent wild animal suffering from that standpoint. Instead, I think we might want to consider the possibility that animal husbandry is a decent idea. Not in the idea that we should use animals for wide scale commodification and consumption (requiring their early death). But rather, we adapt other animals into our lives and keep them safe while providing them with the maximum possible comfort and protection.
As per my chicken example, a wild chicken is far better suited to live with me than in the wild. Killing or harming them would negate the good of keeping them from danger as I am now the new threat, but “owning” them isn’t necessarily bad. I would more so frame it as being a caretaker, even if they produce something that we like or can use. Similarly to my dog hair example, just using the natural byproduct from an animal isn’t bad ethically, it’s just the way we do it where we find issue. So if they were to continue laying eggs at a rate that doesn’t hurt them, I see no issue in eating said eggs in the same way I see no issue in using the hair that is naturally shed/cut from my dog to improve their and my livelyhood (if their hair was indeed useful).
I will say it’s a tricky paradigm. Owning sounds inherently wrong because we recall ideas of slavery and all the implications of that such as forced labor and abuse. But that is using human ideas of jobs, freedom, choice, etc. It’s why I would rather focus on how my actions impact the chicken’s well being rather than abstract ideas. Even if it is more difficult sometimes to grapple with, I feel the chicken, or any other example animal is far better off living their whole life in a caretaker situation with no suffering caused by the use of their byproduct, than really any other.
As an aside, I hope you and the person you care about work out. It’s tough to be patient when you care about something so deeply, but I hope that you’re able to pull through and you both are happy :)
As for the hive’s (still funny to me) rules, we try to keep the “coddling” to a minimum. I’ve heard this strategy of activism referred to as baby steps. I’ll try to side step that to avoid the rule since your thoughts are very interesting and you put a lot of effort into responding here.
I think all or nothing messages can push people away who would be willing to take some action, but not fully commit, and maybe be counter productive even if it’s cognitively easier to square.
Something I remember hearing a while back as a bit of a confrontation was to change the group we are harming in our actions to see if that changes how we see how we act. For example, swap the following two actions.
A. "I kill 4 animals a week for my food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this."
B. "I went to the animal shelter and killed 4 dogs for food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this"
It seems like an unfair comparison, even one made out to “get” people in some sort of ethical snare, but the situation is virtually the same. Dogs and normally farmed animals have no real difference separating the two and we can opt to not kill either. In fact, dogs can and have been farmed and killed quite recently. Some are vocally upset that people have tried to stop them from doing so as it seems extreme to them for others to stop them.
All of that being said, I understand what you mean by it being hard to change. We can look at anyone with an addiction to a substance and just tell them to switch, but we as humans are horrible at changing and there are often other factors that hold people back from doing what they ought to do.
You mention, that you would never be able to give up meat, cheese, etc. But the thing is, you don’t really have to. We, as animals, love the taste of umami, acid, salt, sugar, etc. These are just biological phenomena brought forward from our genetics to get us to consume food with vitamins, minerals, and macronutrients we need. But a vegan diet doesn’t have to give those up. Vegan foods throughout history have been made from whole foods and are delicious (especially coming from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia).
Also, modern food science has made cheap, and often reasonably healthy, vegan alternatives to many of the things you are worried about. Just today, I consumed a homemade pizza made with spicy chorizo (made from gardein be’f crumbles) and daiya cheese (not a healthy meal, but you get my point). Hell, there are several restaurants that carry these options on their menu if we’re feeling lazy. We can cook scrambled eggs, omelets, or breakfast sandwiches with Just Egg as well. Granted, my family avoids these products and only uses them for special occasions as we opt for more whole food options, but these ones in particular are low in saturated fat and sodium - making them reasonable processed foods to consume regularly, even when compared to their animal counterparts.
If you ever want some options for your favorite foods, my partner and I love to experiment and try what is best, both in store, at restaurants, and at home. We haven’t found anything that cannot be reasonably replaced yet. I also study nutrition and am more than willing to help out with any worries you might have there.
I think you make a good point with societal factors of my actions. Its a critique with some utilitarians because our hedonistic calculations are sometimes just straight out missing indirect factors - something we definitely need to consider.
For me, I rationalize this all by trying to compare the other aspects of my ethical views. When I try to make sense of what I ought to do, I consider the total good/lack of bad that the action will have. For your example, donating the wool might indeed be the most ethical option. However, I’d rate it at about as good as donating my extra food I don’t nutritionally need but want for hedonistic reasons (e.g., candy, cake, extra servings of pasta, etc). I can donate that end product and reduce the need for someone else to buy it, thus reducing harm elsewhere, but it wouldn’t be very impactful.
My main goal, in this odd scenario I’ve imagined, would be to live that life with the sheep/chickens to show others how our relationship to animals may be redefined as one that is purely mutualistic. One where we gain from them existing (food production) and they gain from our protection and modern amenities like healthcare (and hopefully we both gain social value if possible). I think that societal impact might be more than the relative bandage of donating wool/egg to offset harm from other people’s choices.
Sounds like a tough situation for her. I imagine being in that field must be a large source of internal conflict - definitely something I would have problems reasoning with.
From my POV, the hedonistic calculation might check out depending on the relative impact we give to each of these interactions. For example, killing an animal directly is probably less bad than buying an animal product (from a utilitarian perspective) since there’s a level of capitalistic abstraction I cannot reasonably account for because of my tiny human brain. So sure, she’s making money by use of harming animals, but its not as bad as directly harming said animals, and there’s a tough moral dilemma of which animals we ought to help all things being equal.
I think we all would find that the best solution would be to phase out the breeding of feline and other obligate carnivorous animals to limit or eliminate the need for killing others for their food. But for the time being, I find it difficult to find something for your girlfriend to do better. Seems to me that she is doing the best thing she can.
Me too, Bill, me too