This past week a post was made by autismdragon criticizing a Spanish meme calling out those who hypocritically denounce reformism and social democracy/democratic socialism in the United States or Europe but are ardent supporters of Latin American reformism and social democracy. within this post I and several Latin American comrades criticized this position from my our perspectives as abandoning revolution and being conciliatory to capitalists and capitalism in our countries. during this conversation I offhandedly mentioned that Honduras is also a western nation, a belief commonly held here, much to the chagrin of the general userbase who found the concept of any Latin American country being western preposterous. A comrade from Brazil, Apolonio, decided to make a separate post to expand on this topic in more detail and help explain the Latin American position so that people can understand where we are coming from. I was banned for 3 days for being a white supremacist for believing my country is western and Apolonio was bullied off the platform and went on to delete their account and every message they have ever made. its within this hostile atmosphere that I am going to analyze the oppositional view and its origins and analyze the chauvinistic attitude toward the predominant Latin American perspective.
1. The Beliefs Of The Userbase
User Dirt_Possum says
The way I’ve always thought of it is that “Western” is just an informal way of saying Imperial Core. That it’s all a matter of who is doing imperialism to whom, who is benefiting from imperialism and who is being exploited by it. That it’s not a matter of culture, language, etc., and is only a matter of race and racism because it’s racist reasoning and racist justification at the heart of imperialism
and SeventyTwoTrillion says
“Western” and “imperial core” are synonymous to me, too, and thus Honduras is not in the imperial core and I assume is in the periphery
while sooper_dooper_roofer adds
This whole debate is pointless because “Western” is just another weasel word, a euphemism, a dogwhistle, for “White”. The point was to make it sound softer and tamer, and the fact that this debate even exists, means they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. “The White World” sounds awkward and racist to the POC across the globe, but “The Western World” sounds soft and tame and inclusive–mission accomplished!
and autismdragon themself who made the original post says
For me, “the west”, “the imperial core”, and “the global north” are very close to being synonymous in how i understand them. But maybe they shouldnt be. This is why i usually use imperial core though, since it seems the most specific.
finally to end with we have supafuzz saying
The white bourgeois insistence on ‘cultural westernism’ or whatever in these countries is just aspiration to the Imperial core that they ain’t in
viewing all these different statements combined, none of which are being detracted by other people as being blatantly wrong and all being surrounded by a conversation about the definition of white and whiteness it is safe to assume that for the community there is no nuanced difference between all these different terminologies and they are not defined in significantly different ways. The West is the Imperial Core is White is The Global North is each other. Western Culture is not a defined set of beliefs, values, culture, religion, or anything else that can be viewed concretely but viewed holistically as just what white people do. This is a racial categorizational view of the world or a racially reductionized view that begs us to ask the question of what is white or more importantly who is white.
on the topic of eastern europeans we have Egon who says
Croatia, while being perceived as a “white” country most certainly is not perceived as western. Polish people, Czech people, Croatians, these people are not treated as equals when they come into “western” European countries. There is immense racism against them. You should hear how people speak of old “east block” countries.
and yet this seems contradictory to what has been established beforehand about western and white being synonymous. thankfully, in the past this sort of contradiction was found and rectified by categorizing eastern europeans in their own subracial category called the alpine race. This categorization allowed for the continued differentiation of eastern europeans in their own group while still allowing them to be caucasian which was the fancy term for white in the past.
on the topic of southern europeans we have sooper_dooper_roofer adding
Italian was considered a different racial category from northern European as late as the 1980s, I’ve seen it on official job applications. Italians also just look different in a way which doesn’t exist for Irish Polish or even Russian people. They’re darker, and they look more proximal to Arabs or Mexicans depending on who you ask. only from the (visibly darker pigmented) European periphery of Spain
or TupamarosShakur who says
However I think another point is that “the west” doesn’t apply to even Spain, I mean not really. There is of course the racial component that someone touched on, where Italians, southern Europeans, are not considered white
from this we can see that southern europeans are both included and disincluded from whiteness with the added fact that unlike eastern europeans, or the alpine race as it would’ve been called, southern europeans are significantly more tan than the real whites. thankfully this problem was also rectified with the sub-racial categorization of the Mediterranean race. this subracial categorization also conveniently solved the next problem on the list; Latin America.
sooper_dooper_roofer explains extensively through talking about admixture within latin american communities saying
that’s like 90% of Latin America or 75% of South America. They’re not white, they’re admixed with Europeans. Just like Black Americans are. I know a lot of you think you’re white because you’re lighter skinned than black people. Arabs and lighter skinned Indians also think that a lot of the time. They’re not. Almost everyone in Northern Europe and Anglo America can tell the difference and tbh even Argentinians don’t really look that white to me on average.
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any “white” person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Latinos are basically only half white (from a darker than average white country like Spain), that means that Latinos are not Western
while Egon talks similar with
The argument that a lot of Italians went to Brazil, and so the place is “white” is funny to me too. Italians were still treated like an exotic “other” up to the late 90’s lol.
within these arguments we can see that Latin Americans are made up of Mediterraneans and natives and since Mediterraneans aren’t truly white either you end up with non whites and ergo non westerns. this also contains an age old classic The One Drop Rule. Since all Latin Americans are considered to have at least one drop of non-white in them they’re all tainted to be non-white while since the united states is made up of English and Germans mixing with Italians or other Caucasians this has a purifying effect creating real whites.
to further expand we have JohnBrownNote saying
yeah japan is sometimes part of “the west” but it’s not western. i mentioned in another comment that this is perhaps an opposite to the latam situation.
or supafuzz taking even further saying
I’d also argue Japan is more “western” than, say, Colombia in most cultural ways too. Full internalization of Western art, music, and most importantly political and governance structures, which are sort of a superficial veneer in most of Latam.
this comes from an old trope that japan is honourary aryan and that the japanese are special enough to be allowed in an anglo-japanese alliance. this further highlights the underlying racial aspect of this since anyone can very plainly see that very little about japan is culturally similar to western european countries and ties into the final point
in a little bonus 420stalin69 concludes with
I think of latam as having a western layer in the upper and more white classes that exploit a non-western majority.
this highlights the well established in other comments belief in white inherently being successful and dominant. those within latin american societies which are rich and do well obviously have to be white in the same way japan must be atleast honourary white in order to explain their similar success despite being asian. this also explains why the west is also the richest place on earth due to their dominance
now what does this all add up towards? this forum fundamentally believes in Anglo-Saxonism or Nordicism which is an outdated racialist ideology that divides the world into differing Caucasian races who predominantly inhabit different countries of which the Nordic race is the endangered and superior one destined to lead the other white races to greatness. the origin of the Nordic race comes from the Germanic tribes which went on to conquer across Europe and create Germany, The United Kingdom, France, and other countries. In fact, the only significant difference between Nordicists and the people on Hexbear seems to be the belief that white people are bad. This explains the incongruence of ideology between Latin Americans on the forum and the non-Latin American majority. Within Latin America Nordicism is not at all popular and those who espouse it are mentally tied together with the Nazis of Germany in the 30s.
2. Credibility of Those Beliefs
Now I was under the impression that after ww2 racialism was entirely discredited within academia and inside any groups in society who matter but evidently with the rise of neo-nazism, white identitarianism, and apparently this forum its an ideology that makes intuitive sense for some and has grand explanations for others. keeping in line with the talk of admixture some people have done before I am going to start by saying there is no such thing as races and its a concept that makes no sense whatsoever biologically.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml
you can see in these simple autosomal admixture maps that genetic diversity is the rule and not the exception when it comes to Europe even within these countries that are labeled as “true white”. the United Kingdom, Germany, Netherlands, and France do not have their entire population share any haplogroup which could be used as the basis of this racial theory and the majorities in the UK share with Ireland, France share with Spain, Germany share with Poland haplogroups that they don’t share with other “true whites”. this is also entirely ignoring the fact that hapolgroups from outside Europe is found in abundance within Europe. The lack of scientific rigor for race is precisely why in South Africa they did not follow this ideology but instead used the Pencil Test to gauge who was and wasn’t white. now the only defense for why the need to adopt crazy racialist theory always amounts to “well a lot of people believe this stuff is true so we need to too” which apparently is true for nordicism but isn’t true for the belief that communism is evil or that lowering taxes is good. conveniently, too, no singular person or group is ever pointed to as holding these beliefs its always an amorphous “everyone”. well, as a counterfactual to this apparent majority who all think that western culture and civilization is just white I will point to the two most well known authors on Western Civilization. Oswald Spengler who wrote The Decline of the West in 1918 which popularized talk of western civilization and gave it universal terminology said in volume 2 page 46
But that which distinguished Faustian man, even then, from the man of any other Culture was his irrepressible urge into distance. It was this, in the last resort, that killed and even annihilated the Mexican and Peruvian Culture — the unparalleled drive that was ready for service in any and every domain… the relation between this forceful young Civilization and the still remaining old ones — is that it covers them, all alike, with ever-thickening layers of West-European-American life-forms under which, slowly, the ancient native form disappears.
This aligns with Spengler’s view of Western Civilization not being defined in racial terms, he was actually ardently opposed to the racists of his time and believed a “race” was a population united in outlook not ethnicity or dna and believed that mesoamerican culture was overthrown and replaced with western culture to join western civilization. Samuel Huntington who wrote the foremost modern book on Western Civilization, Clash of Civilizations, writes on page 45 a simple description of Western Civilization as
Western. Western civilization is usually dated as emerging about A.D. 700 or 800. It is generally viewed by scholars as having three major components, in Europe, North America, and Latin America.
more specifically regarding Latin America he says
Latin America could be considered either a subcivilization within Western civilization or a separate civilization closely affiliated with the West and divided as to whether it belongs in the West.
This underpins his disbelief in race being the objective definer of western civilization. this in fact highlights the widely accepted belief within academia, since I sau it once again racialism is no longer the vogue in academia, that other factors such as culture define whether or not someone is within western civilization not race.
3. Why it Matters
Some at this point may believe its fine to have outdated racialist concepts considered reactionary in the early 20th century and that they help explain the world very well despite being demonstrably false. I say that this theory ironically orientalizes Latin Americans, papers over the realities and differences in our specific countries, and promotes chauvanistic and paternalistic thinking towards Latin Americans. Latin American society was born from western conquerers and is defined in this and is not defined in whatever “brownness” that is prescribed onto us by foreigners. when a latino talks to another latino from another country its through a european language, spanish or portuguese, not through a native language. this language, spanish or portuguese is our native language which may not mean much to americans who have no concept of knowing more than one language but it makes a great deal more difference when your family, government, friends, and workplace all speak and express themselves and their identity through that language than when you have to use your second language, which you’re usually not very good at, to negotiate through society as a foreigner or other. we act in a fashion mimicking the mannerisms brought to us by conquers from long ago and believe in ourselves in a way brought to us by these same conquerers. and finally many of us can trace our lineage very recently from elsewhere and may not have any kind of genetic connection to natives. plenty of chinese, italian, german, or in my particular case arab immigrants moved to our countries very recently. I can very easily trace my family leaving palestine in 1922 but nobody in my own country would deny my latinness since we’re not racist in that way. even further, people talk about being hatecrimed immediately upon stepping foot in rural united states, which I have done and can say I am not dead and nobody cared quite as much as it was made out to me, yet you can literally say the same thing about mexicans hatecriming hondurans upon entering mexico and deporting them or mention the fact that the majority of border patrol in the united states is latinos themselves. fundamentally, the theory just does not understand latin america which is why its there is an issue and why it needs to be done away with.
“The West”, “Western Civilization” and “Western” are all loosely defined terms our political enemies use to justify the (horrific) status quo and/or call for even more regressive political policies- to quote this article from Vox:
(The only amendment I’d make is that this term, “Western Civilization”, has a longer history as a dog-whistle for white supremacy than just its use by the alt-right as the article suggests, and that the alt-right has since been mainstreamed and reabsorbed into the right wing proper in the anglosphere since the time that this article was published.)
Since almost everyone on this forum is some form of Leftist opposed to the unjust hierarchy’s imposed upon us by Capitalism, Imperialism, White Supremacy and Patriarchy, naturally we would be suspicious of anyone who would seek to adopt these terms, since we oppose those very things and would like to see them torn down. I think maybe there’s been a miscommunication?
Hegemony/ imperial hegemony refers to ideas elaborated upon by Lenin in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, in which he describes the mechanisms for how capitalism supports colonialism as a means of extracting labour/wealth from the global south.
Cultural hegemony is a further elaboration of those ideas by Antonio Gramsci, focusing on ways that the ruling class impose their values upon their subjects through culture. White supremacists invoking “Western Civilization” as a sort of mythology is an example of that.
Imperial core is a term from World Systems Analysis by Wallerstein, which is a further development of Lenin’s work in Imperialism (ok, this is a gross oversimplification but I don’t want to spend too much time on that) in analyzing the mechanism’s of how capitalists in the global north extract wealth from the global south today.
You’ll of course note that Latin America is marked in the the “semi-periphery”. The map measures flows of capital, based on trade, which is empirical data. Yet all the countries marked orange on the map (barring Japan, and even then) are the ones that our political opponents would say are the heirs to “Western Civilization”. This is deliberate.
When our political opponent’s invoke “Western Civilization”, they’re almost always doing so as a defense for the current hegemon, the United States, to maintain it’s current imperial status in order to justify the continuing plunder of the global south and the accumulation of capital in the global north. This project is intrinsically linked to white supremacy as a justification for the continuing plunder, for reasons too numerous to get into here.
When we (Leftists) point out that our political opponents won’t consider Latin America as part of “Western Civilization”, we’re not trying to downplay the historical role Latin America played and will continue to play, or it’s many struggles- we’re just pointing out that those whose hands are on the levers of power are the one’s who get the decide who is or isn’t in the club, and it just so happens that those hands are overwhelmingly white. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I don’t doubt for a significant portion of people western civilization is code for WASPs but for a significant portion of people, including the majority of people in my country it has a different meaning and i’ve shown multiple scholars from the past and today who view it having a different meaning as well. I also have to note that wallerstein is not a marxist, his analysis puts my country as periphery while mexico a fellow latin american country is semi-periphery, portugal which is a western european country is semi-periphery putting it as the same level as mexico, while spain is core despite not being part of this “nordic race”.
I just wanted to point out that the reaction you’re receiving is because of this difference in meaning. The political position most people on this forum would take is that “Western Civilization” as a term should be retired and discontinued as part of a wider effort to dismantle white supremacism, imperialism and capitalism, not that the term be expanded to be more inclusive.
On World Systems Analysis: Wallenstein is not marxist, but marxist scholar’s like Samir Amin use World Systems Analysis because it usefully measures how much a country benefits (or has historically benefited) from colonialism.
To quote the relevant part from the article the other poster provided:
and I’d say discontinuing it is a fools errand and would lessen our ability to describe very real phenomenon and cultural forces. how else might I describe the process by which my country, a third world one not part of the imperial core people tell me about, forces its native population to adopt spanish, adopt market forces, adopt wage labour, adopt cultural attitudes and self identification, etc
Have you read Frantz Fanon? He’s a marxist writer who discusses at length these cultural forces you’re describing, in his work on colonialism and neocolonialism. I think maybe the ideas in his work would serve us better as a common frame of reference.
Also,
People say this about capitalism, Marxists are ever eternal optimists.
Being “western” means being “Satan”. You shouldn’t want to be “western” and the more “westernized” your country becomes, the more demonic
Systems analysis isn’t a breakdown of white and non-white nations, it’s more or an analysis of net benefit/drain on a country in Americas global empire. So core/periphery/semi-periphery is more of an analysis of how the imperial system works, which maps well onto the “western” world previously discussed. It so happens that much of that world is also white, though not exclusively.
I think this recent article on the question of whether china is periphery or core to better understand the topic: https://monthlyreview.org/2021/07/01/china-imperialism-or-semi-periphery/
yeah except it really doesn’t fit well with the western world and spain or portugal. conflating the two is only going to reduce people’s understanding
I think it’s maps very well onto the “Western” world. Could you describe the ways in which it doesn’t? Core countries are typically those that historically benefitted the most from colonialism, and parlayed that advantage into today’s complex global trade and markets.
Spain is considered core as it did that more successfully than Portugal, who is considered semi-peripheral. It also helps explain some of the racial things you’re talking about, like how Japan is part of the imperial core both from its own imperial exploits and from it’s relationship with the us in the postwar period. Much of Japan’s racial expectation in the otherwise white western world as the model minority is a cultural effect downstream of their important place in the flow of surplus value from the imperial periphery to the core
you can’t say the west is core while parts of the west are not core and parts of the core are not the west. clearly they’re describing different things and it don’t map 1 to 1
Seems to map 1:1, just like always “always the same map”
This all just seems like you are mad you aren’t in green on the “always the same map” so you are taking it out on us. Stop trying to join team Satan