And you know what, that might just very well be true if we’re talking about some supernatural force that is indifferent to its creations, not out of malice, but because it simply is truly neutral.

But as evidence for the religious capital ‘G’ God, the one who communicates and plans every little detail because he loves us so much? What is the point of these “subtle” proofs that took thousands of years to be studied and recorded when he has shown that he can just pop up anywhere or perform miracles and whatever the fuck.

It is no coincidence that the vast majority, possibly 99%, of devout religious people do not give a shit about using math to explain god because it’s all proven in their holy books. It is no coincidence that the “empirical” evidence is, in reality, just pointing at the existence of features and concepts of math and science rather than utilizing said features and concepts to prove the existence of god. And no, philosophical musings about morality using the language of mathematical proofs does not count as utilizing math and science (literally, all the axioms in these types of “proofs” are subjective shit like “bad” and “good” and not, say, the difference between 1 and 0).

And I didn’t even want to make a post dunking on religion, but I’m irritated because YouTube recommended some dumbass video by a channel called “Reformed Zoomer” and one of the arguments is “there is an infinite range of numbers between two numbers, and if we turn those numbers into letters, then every book possible has already been written. Checkmate atheoids”. https://youtu.be/z0hxb5UVaNE?si=RpjF6S0fHiF71iH-

  • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    11 months ago

    We can pretty conclusively prove consciousness is a brain phenomenon. We can watch fmri data and see our Brian put together thoughts. We can use magnets to change people’s thoughts. Some labs are able to read people’s thoughts in small ways. However, if a God of some kind made a universe they would make things work so that is what we would expect to see. We are right where we left off.

    • CannotSleep420
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      11 months ago

      We can watch fmri data and see our Brian put together thoughts.

      This is Brian. Here you can see him putting together some thoughts.

    • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      11 months ago

      We can pretty conclusively prove consciousness is a brain phenomenon.

      That’s not true at all. We can prove brain activity correlates to conscious activity, but there is no direct evidence brain activity by itself wholly causes consciousness, that’s still conjecture based on previously held assumptions. There’s still a whole lot we don’t know about how the brain works, I think it’s way too early to conclusively say we’re all just brain and nothing else.

      • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        Yeah. We have brain injury studies and fmri data. Consciousness maps 1:1 to brain activity. We can change the brain and have predictable changes in consciousness.

        If the 🧠 was somehow working with a soul in some other level it would be detectable. There is currently no detection and no effect that requires such an explination. If it existed Haliburton would be killing people in the global south to bottle it.

        However, any half way decent god would make the world like this. So this observation is of limited utility.

        • Wheaties [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          11 months ago

          Which specific brain activity does it map to? Is it the the firing of neurons? Does it emerge from all of them? How many do you need to make a thought? Does anything else play a role, like the structures within cells? Or can we ignore those bits? How does memory work?

          • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            Neocortex mostly, although some supposing amount of it is related to the amygdala. Mostly, there is alot of stuff about neurotransmitters modulating that activity though. Depends on the kind of thought. They can pretty reasonably narrow down some kinds of memory to s few cm2 of brain. Everything plays a role. I could find your some neuroscience tiktoks if you like. You’d have to be a bit more specific about memory for me to give you an answer. From my understanding every concept is a patten of neural segments. Memory is your brain replaying the concepts for a specific thing or event. Which is why over time memories can get fuzzy or change. Each time it is an active process.

        • TraumaDumpling@hexbear.net
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          11 months ago

          consciousness definitely correlates to brain activity, but as we all know correlation does not imply or prove causation. at the very least, there is no specific explanation for how subjectivity is generated from physical brain processes. no one disputes that we can correlate any kind of internal experience to brain activity, but explaining exactly how that brain activity produces subjectivity instead of instinctual or non-subjective information processing is a different question.

          that being said, just because we can’t explain consciousness (in the sense of internal subjective experience, with our current understandings of physics and information theory) doesn’t mean there is a god, or a soul, and even if it did mean those things it wouldn’t necessarily be the abrahamic god or an immortal soul.

          edit: if you are interested, look at my post history, i did a much more in depth series of comments on this subject and i feel like i would end up having the same conversations over again if i continue to contribute here actually just check out these pages on wikipedia for the kinds of things i’m talking about, especially the line ‘Some philosophers of mind, like Daniel Dennett, argue that qualia do not exist. Other philosophers, as well as neuroscientists and neurologists, believe qualia exist and that the desire by some philosophers to disregard qualia is based on an erroneous interpretation of what constitutes science.[2]’ on the Qualia page.

          • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            “there is no specific explanation for how subjectivity is generated from physical brain processes” I do not feel like the need for a special explanation to that sense is required. Why would it be diffrent than any other sense? Some types of schitzotypal conditions cause people to have thoughts with subjectivity. We can see su jetivity forming in people a few seconds before they solve riddles on fmri.

            Also, no. I am not going to read what academic philosophers have to say about neuroscience. I am sure they are good at philosophy though.

            • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              11 months ago

              Why would it be diffrent than any other sense?

              Because consciousness is clearly different than all other things in its properties. It’s literally the one and only thing you know ineffably before all other things, not only that but it’s the only thing you can use to know all other things and so it deserves special epistemological considerations IMO.

              Relegating it with such certainty to just another physical phenomenon seems like an unjustified (and probably wrong IMO) logical leap.

              • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                11 months ago

                I am not sure that is true. Have you heard of Cotard’s syndrome? Ego death? It is essentially no doffrent that proprioception. Like I said with skitzotypals. We cna see people that that have problems with that self identification. This is all fits with other observed senses. Nothing you said is not also true of any other sense

                • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  11 months ago

                  I don’t really get what that has to do with my point. My point wasn’t just about the subjective sense of self but about all the qualia we have. They are the only thing we know exists without any justification simply because we are there to experience them. Information about the existence of everything else other than our own qualia is inferred through observation of said qualia, that includes the whole material reality. This to me deserves special consideration that should amount to more than “well we have MRI scans and it kinda seems like it’s all just the brain”.

                  To me it’s gonna take way more convincing than handwavy hypotheses, that’s why I’m agnostic about the whole thing (also about God).

                  • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                    11 months ago

                    That she thing though. You are one good pill away from scrambling all your qualia. They can induce the feeling of God with an electromagnet. We can observe people who clearly lack that quality you are tlaking about. I am saying I don’t see the justifications for treating it as a separate category of sense