2008 was caused by bankers doing extremely illegal shit. How many people were imprisoned for it?
They could do it. But they don’t want to. The difference here is that in the west the financial elite are the ruling class and the proletariat are under the boot. In China the proletariat are the ruling class and the bourgeoisie are under the boot.
2008 was caused by bankers doing extremely illegal shit. How many people were imprisoned for it?
I’d say the point is more that the behavior that led to 2008 was substantially legal under a system designed to grease the wheels of financial capital at all costs
Sure. That too. But jack shit happens when what they’re doing is actually illegal too. All over the west there are different financial laws where they definitely crossed the line, not a single country did shit to them for it. They are the ruling class and the system will not pursue them unless there is a threat to the system itself if they’re not pursued.
A few years back it was discovered that several of Denmark’s largest banks had a practice of systematically defrauding delinquent debtors by making them believe they still owed debts that had been paid back already or had passed the statute of limitation. The practice had gone on for at least four decades. Senior management of the banks knew about the “error” as it was euphemismically called for years. At the end the banks had to go through their books and pay some of the stolen money back but nobody ever mentioned the possibility of jail time, fines or any other kind of penalty for anyone.
IIRC, Kamala Harris’ DA’S office wanted to go after Mnuchin for financial crimes and Harris told her own office to back off.
Even better, it was Mnuchin’s job to handle that distribution of 500B dollars leveraged 10-to-1 (so like 5 TRILLION dollars) to companies at the beginning of COVID with zero oversight.
Slightly unrelated but your comment makes me wonder, are they though? The President of China hasn’t changed in ten years and while that in of itself doesn’t imply wrongdoing, China DOES have a one party election system. Can we really call that the rule of the working class, or even a free democracy for that matter?
proletarian dictatorships tend to have long-ruling leaders who are symbols of proletarian power that the masses can concentrate around and trust, because they have proven their allegiance in the revolution. Every proletarian state has had long-serving heads of state.
Democracy isn’t “when leader changes a bunch”. That just means a volatile system, or a system where the leader doesn’t matter anyway and is just a rotating door.
Always fun to ask people that were critical of Morales if they knew when that term limit was put into effect. They never know it came in under his presidency.
I think you didn’t read the whole comment. My point was that a one party system can’t be called a free democracy. While eight other minor parties exist in China, they must
accept the “leading role” of the CCP as a condition of their continued existence
Free democracy is when anybody can make a political party and they have an equal change of winning or losing, ie no ‘special privileges’ like the CCP has.
Look I know we like to simp for China here on hexbear, but we shouldn’t blatantly ignore it’s flaws. Anyway hope this answered atleast some of your questions. Peace ✌️
Im pretty sure the number of parties that can run for election and actually get elected, doesnt say much about democracy. Just look at the eu and their austerity policies, through the decades if you wish. Also i think the multiparty system was tried in Chile in the 70s, they didnt oppress opposition. They got couped. The multiparty system is a western thing, and the chinese dont need to pretend they’re white. I’d say a more accurate way of measuring democracy is to ask: is the government following the interest of the people? In that sense ok theyre not perfect, but give me a multiparty system thats better than china.
the Chinese party system is more complicated than there just being one party. There are multiple political parties but the chinese constitution specifies how powerful each of them are.
the other parties exist as a source of political ideas
There are multiple political parties but the chinese constitution specifies how powerful each of them are.
Generally, it specifies how powerful they can be, i.e. it puts a cap on their power rather than giving them power. It is still up to them to survive among their constituency.
Term limits are actually undemocratic and only exist in America because the American president can do whatever the fuck they want (unless they want to enact policy it’s a very silly system)
Notably term limits were only implemented after FDR, who was obscenely popular not just because he was a wartime president but because of the New Deal.
Xi’s father was actually purged from the party, and the family was exiled to the countryside to live among the working class. He never finished high school until he was an adult.
Within that context, he went from living in a cave (This is not an exaggeration, he was in a village in Shaanxi, northern China where people live in rooms carved into the side of cliffs and mountains for housing that’s cool in summer and easy to insulate in winter. He literally lived in a man made cave) doing manual labour to the president of a global superpower. He’s had more experience among the working class than most previous Chinese leadership.
Because even proletariat can have different opinions, I guess? Just look at how many factions there are in communism. Different people have different ideas about what they believe is the best way to implement communism.
spoiler
I know factions isn’t the best word, but I can’t think of anything else atm
2008 was caused by bankers doing extremely illegal shit. How many people were imprisoned for it?
They could do it. But they don’t want to. The difference here is that in the west the financial elite are the ruling class and the proletariat are under the boot. In China the proletariat are the ruling class and the bourgeoisie are under the boot.
I’d say the point is more that the behavior that led to 2008 was substantially legal under a system designed to grease the wheels of financial capital at all costs
Sure. That too. But jack shit happens when what they’re doing is actually illegal too. All over the west there are different financial laws where they definitely crossed the line, not a single country did shit to them for it. They are the ruling class and the system will not pursue them unless there is a threat to the system itself if they’re not pursued.
A few years back it was discovered that several of Denmark’s largest banks had a practice of systematically defrauding delinquent debtors by making them believe they still owed debts that had been paid back already or had passed the statute of limitation. The practice had gone on for at least four decades. Senior management of the banks knew about the “error” as it was euphemismically called for years. At the end the banks had to go through their books and pay some of the stolen money back but nobody ever mentioned the possibility of jail time, fines or any other kind of penalty for anyone.
NOOOO IT WAS BECAUSE THE POORS AND FANNIE MAE AND FREDDIE MAC
One of those banks was IndyMac… whose head was Steven Mnuchin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Mnuchin
Guy with a direct link to the 2008 financial crisis getting a spot in the executive agency
Sums up America quite well
IIRC, Kamala Harris’ DA’S office wanted to go after Mnuchin for financial crimes and Harris told her own office to back off.
Even better, it was Mnuchin’s job to handle that distribution of 500B dollars leveraged 10-to-1 (so like 5 TRILLION dollars) to companies at the beginning of COVID with zero oversight.
Slightly unrelated but your comment makes me wonder, are they though? The President of China hasn’t changed in ten years and while that in of itself doesn’t imply wrongdoing, China DOES have a one party election system. Can we really call that the rule of the working class, or even a free democracy for that matter?
Yes.
Term limits are neutral as far as democracy is concerned
One proletarian party is more democratic then N bourgeois parties.
proletarian dictatorships tend to have long-ruling leaders who are symbols of proletarian power that the masses can concentrate around and trust, because they have proven their allegiance in the revolution. Every proletarian state has had long-serving heads of state.
Democracy isn’t “when leader changes a bunch”. That just means a volatile system, or a system where the leader doesn’t matter anyway and is just a rotating door.
Germany had the same president for 16 years. Canada had the same one for 9.
Maximum term limits in the US is eight years
What the fuck are you talking about? Free democracy is when your leader changes every two years?
I think term limits are kinda bullshit anyway. They were used against Evo Morales as well.
Always fun to ask people that were critical of Morales if they knew when that term limit was put into effect. They never know it came in under his presidency.
What too much EU4 does to an mf (muh republican tradition!)
I think you didn’t read the whole comment. My point was that a one party system can’t be called a free democracy. While eight other minor parties exist in China, they must
Free democracy is when anybody can make a political party and they have an equal change of winning or losing, ie no ‘special privileges’ like the CCP has.
Look I know we like to simp for China here on hexbear, but we shouldn’t blatantly ignore it’s flaws. Anyway hope this answered atleast some of your questions. Peace ✌️
Im pretty sure the number of parties that can run for election and actually get elected, doesnt say much about democracy. Just look at the eu and their austerity policies, through the decades if you wish. Also i think the multiparty system was tried in Chile in the 70s, they didnt oppress opposition. They got couped. The multiparty system is a western thing, and the chinese dont need to pretend they’re white. I’d say a more accurate way of measuring democracy is to ask: is the government following the interest of the people? In that sense ok theyre not perfect, but give me a multiparty system thats better than china.
the Chinese party system is more complicated than there just being one party. There are multiple political parties but the chinese constitution specifies how powerful each of them are.
the other parties exist as a source of political ideas
Generally, it specifies how powerful they can be, i.e. it puts a cap on their power rather than giving them power. It is still up to them to survive among their constituency.
Term limits are actually undemocratic and only exist in America because the American president can do whatever the fuck they want (unless they want to enact policy it’s a very silly system)
Notably term limits were only implemented after FDR, who was obscenely popular not just because he was a wartime president but because of the New Deal.
An ideal government is a stable one where the people’s needs are met.
The illusion of choice does not make a government serve the working class.
Xi’s father was actually purged from the party, and the family was exiled to the countryside to live among the working class. He never finished high school until he was an adult.
Within that context, he went from living in a cave (This is not an exaggeration, he was in a village in Shaanxi, northern China where people live in rooms carved into the side of cliffs and mountains for housing that’s cool in summer and easy to insulate in winter. He literally lived in a man made cave) doing manual labour to the president of a global superpower. He’s had more experience among the working class than most previous Chinese leadership.
What is a “free” democracy and how would you define one? Where does one exist?
I’ll take one party that serves the working class over two that don’t.
Why would the proletariat need more than one party? Multiple parties are a sign of a sick society
Because even proletariat can have different opinions, I guess? Just look at how many factions there are in communism. Different people have different ideas about what they believe is the best way to implement communism.
spoiler
I know factions isn’t the best word, but I can’t think of anything else atm