u/snapp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
According to Lenin, the five basic features are:
- The concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life
- the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy;
- the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
- the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and
- the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed.
Does Russia fulfill this criteria?
u/Hungry_Mr_Hippo - originally from r/GenZhou
While Russia is capitalist, it is fundamentally opposed to and opposed by the US and EU hegemony and thus falls outside or is blocked from many imperial abilities and activities. And while yes the Russian oligarchs would probably operate these systems if they could, the current imperial oligarchs deny them from doing so because that would represent a loss of capital and control. They are denied being a unit in the division of imperial capital, thus failing rule 5.u/snapp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
That closely mirrors my thinking. There’s essentially no hegemonic space left for another imperialist power as the world has already been divided up between territorial powers. Russia was late to the game, in other words.So whilst Russia could become imperialist as it retains the potential to, if the “space” arose, it currently isn’t.
u/CommieGhost - originally from r/GenZhou
Or, to look from the other side of the table, Russia wishes only to reorganize the current hegemonic system, instead of fundamentally abolishing it.That’s why I don’t think it is exactly correct to call Russia anti-imperialist outright, even though it might not be part of the Imperial Core: you can’t really be anti-imperialist if you actively aspire to become the Imperial Core, although you can certainly create opportunities for actual anti-imperialists to act.
The enemy of my enemy isn’t my friend, it is a useful idiot.
u/Elektribe - originally from r/GenZhou
Wanting to be rich makes a poor person a liberal not a capitalist themselves. Likewise wanting to be rich doesn’t make you rich. It just makes you wanting to be rich… A poor person who becomes a rich capitalist, however unlikely is a rich capitalist - not a poor person.The point is, they are anti-imperialist in praxis and action against imperialists - until they aren’t… They are anti-imperialist liberals, not imperialist liberals, nor anti-imperialist communists.
If we say “in control” for your enemy of enemy as imperialism… An enemy who is not in control fighting an enemy who is in control, no matter how much they desire to be in control, are not in control - until they are or may never be depending on circumstances - but what is known, not in control now. Still useful idiot, but being a useful idiot is not in control - even if they beat up the guy in control still doesn’t automatically put them in control.
Likewise goes for friends. Just because bolsheviks won the war did magically grant them full domination of the land of Russia against capitalist forces even though beat up some people with “some control”. It is not sufficient to beat someone and claim your in control to be in control, you must have the conditions of control - which isn’t just saying it. Even Stalin wrote against Trotskiyites regarding Kulaks - telling Trotskyites them don’t fuck around unless you want to find out - at least until they have sufficiently supplanted their power and then finish with dekulakization, don’t fuck around.
“In control” here is a bit inapt and inexact, since hegemonic domination is not imperialism itself - but rather the conditions of imperialist financial hegemony of the listed conditions in OP. That is, globally dominating communist hegemony would not be imperialist merely because it shuts downs capitalists and maintains democratic cultural hegemony as is necessary for actual democratic systems, ie socialism/communism. Just in case leaning anarchos think this is somehow relevant to their dumb shit ideas of “controlz R bad neva justfried” garbage. Control is a tool and is “good or bad” based on perspective of whether it’s in the hands of who we agree with. For communists, that’s the democratic working masses and finally classless masses. Thus not applying to condition four in Lenin’s list for capitalist associations. For the fascist capitalists, that’s the no one but the fascist capitalists. For anarchists, that’s no one but the fascist capitalists.
u/ZZ3peat - originally from r/GenZhouyou actively aspire to become the Imperial Core
Chine and Russia dont want to be ‘the imperialistic sole hegemony’, they want a multipolar world which isn’t run just by the US
u/CommieGhost - originally from r/GenZhou
I don’t think China is entirely relevant for this, for a number of reasons (most obvious one being that it can’t meaningfully be imperialist under a proper Marxist conception, for obvious reasons).I agree with you that either wants (or is meaningfully capable of becoming, in the short-medium term) that, but I also don’t think either that Russia needs to aspire to be the sole hegemon, either. Recall the older imperialist system, during which Lennin himself wrote Imperialism, the Highest Stage, did not have a sole hegemon, but a number of capitalist great powers with relative parity under competition, which were either way still upholding the same shared world system that benefits them.
A multipolar world with the US, EU (maybe) and Russia as the imperial great powers would be similar in the sense that they are in competition, but would still uphold the same world system, once the shock of Russia’s reorganisation stabilises.
u/ZZ3peat - originally from r/GenZhou
China will be a great power before Russia does, and it will help transport communism outside it’s borders then without being crushed by the US imperialism then.
u/poteland - originally from r/GenZhou
Do you really think Russia wants to become the worlds hegemonic capitalist power? I don’t think anyone there has any illusions about that, they’re not either the first nor second world power and ridiculously far from either, it’s not happening.I think their objective is more modest: to stop living in a unipolar world, which means forming a counter hegemonic bloc, and attempt to speed up the decline of the American empire so the playing field is a bit less hostile.
Id say it’s a better world than the previous status quo with a dominant US.
u/blizzsyn - originally from r/GenZhouDo you really think Russia wants to become the worlds hegemonic capitalist power?
Every capitalist nation wants this, that’s why they reorganize to imperialist action. It’s the nature of the beast. Even if they don’t want it in the early stages, it will become a desire in the later stages, because of the way capitalist society organizes itself. That’s the warning of Lenin’s Imperialism.
Every capitalist society is a proto-imperialist nation.
u/poteland - originally from r/GenZhou
Sure, I’ve read it, but that refers to how capitalism evolves by the forces within it, not that Russia or every capitalist nation has actual, real, secret plans to be the global hegemonic power.That’s why I differ with the view that Russia is “actively” trying to replace the current imperialist bloc, I think they are pragmatic and realist enough that they “actively” want to subvert its power, not replace it (even if that’s what capitalism makes them do eventually).
u/blizzsyn - originally from r/GenZhouRussia or every capitalist nation has actual, real, secret plans to be the global hegemonic power.
It’s less they have a secret plan to do this, and more their material conditions drive them to do this.
That’s why I differ with the view that Russia is “actively” trying to replace the current imperialist bloc, I think they are pragmatic and realist enough that they “actively” want to subvert its power, not replace it (even if that’s what capitalism makes them do eventually).
Lenin also covers this. Imperialist powers coming into conflict with one another.
I don’t believe that Russia thinks about anything other than their own power bloc, tbh. Their actions aren’t 4D chess of subversion, so much as, “What can we get away with?”
For example, the Ukrainian invasion has been extremely clumsy on multiple fronts, especially if your goal was to subvert US hegemony and decentralize power from the US on the world stage. It’s had a very opposite polarizing effect in most communities nearby the action, and in a lot of the world. They’ve effectively justified NATO’s existence with one action.
Yes, they want to subvert the US hegemony, and sometimes throw egg on the US’s face, and that makes them an enemy to US-led imperialism. But you shouldn’t have any doubts that Russia is not an ally to those of us that are anti-imperialist, and wouldn’t do the exact same things as the US if given the opportunity.
Russia would 100% like to be the world hegemony. There is no doubt, imo.
u/poteland - originally from r/GenZhouI don’t believe that Russia thinks about anything other than their own power bloc, tbh. Their actions aren’t 4D chess of subversion, so much as, “What can we get away with?”
I wholeheartedly agree! That is mostly what I am arguing (perhaps clumsily), I do not disagree with neither this nor with capitalism’s inevitable eventual march towards imperialism, just pointing out that it’s not an active attempt.
For example, the Ukrainian invasion has been extremely clumsy on multiple fronts, especially if your goal was to subvert US hegemony and decentralize power from the US on the world stage.
I’d argue that for now Rusia’s actions have been (geopolitically) a huge win, since it upsets the status quo: NATO has been harassing it for decades now and only now, for the first time, they are on the back foot and having to decide how they react. Sure, the world’s western powers have aligned themselves heavily with NATO which… of course they were going to. It was only a matter of time, if they could afford to they’d do it to China as well. But fundamentally: things are changing, change in the status quo is bad for the hegemonic bloc and good for the rest of us IMO.
Yes, they want to subvert the US hegemony, and sometimes throw egg on the US’s face, and that makes them an enemy to US-led imperialism. But you shouldn’t have any doubts that Russia is not an ally to those of us that are anti-imperialist, and wouldn’t do the exact same things as the US if given the opportunity.
This is where I’d (partly) disagree, Rusia has been materially an ally of all the non-aligned nations to some degree. Not because of class character (and here’s where I agree with you, you’re absolutely right). Just as capitalism is a global system so is imperialism, and the decline or defeat of the main imperialist power is good for the world, given the choice I would very much substitute one hegemon for another, weaker one which is easier to bring down.
In any case, I don’t claim to have the absolute truth of things here and I want to make that clear, it’s just how I evaluate the issue, but I am also aware of how complex it is and how different readings like yours could very well be the “correct” one.
u/kodiakus - originally from r/GenZhou
I’d say that Russia can still be a part of the global Capitalist empire without being directly aligned or even peaceful with the reigning hegemon.u/Spacecortez - originally from r/GenZhou
The exclusion of Russian oligarchs from part of the imperialist system does not mean that they are excluded from all of it. Lenin’s 5th point there does not talk about capitalists reaching a consensus over how the territorial division of the world amongst the biggest capitalist powers is completed, it only mentions that the territories of the world are divided amongst the biggest imperialist power.Borrowing cited figures here from Prolekult, the internal economy of Russia is dominated by Russian monopoly capital, with over 41% of it’s GDP accounted for by just 10 Russian companies. Russian monopoly capital significantly penetrates foreign markets. Altough the precise rate of capital exports is difficult to calculate because of the widespread us of financial tricks like “round-tripping”, where the money flows through off-shore tax-havens to find favourable investment conditions, capital export accounts for over 30% of the assets of 5 of the top-15 Russian companies. Russian investment abroad rose by over 10,000% from 1995 to 2007, but has only doubled since then due to the stagnation provoked by the crisis of 2008. Russian capital export results in the super-exploitation of other countries, for example 55% of investment in Uzbekistan being Russian capital.
So the territory of Russia is dominated by Russian monopoly capital, and Russian monopoly capital also has a significant share of the territory of other countries, a core feature of imperialism.
Lenin included Germany amongst imperialist powers of the world of his time, even though it was at war with Britain, the dominant imperialist power. He argued against the idea that Germany, as a lesser power, was playing a progressive role in its war on the grounds of its defence against the global hegemon. He included Russia amongst the imperialist powers, even though it was financially far smaller than either Britain or Germany. He argued against the idea that Russia played a progressive role in the war on the grounds of its support for Serbian national liberation. He did not hesitate to call the world war an imperialist war, a dispute amongst imperialist powers over how the world’s territories should be divided.
The war currently taking place in Russia includes amongst its internal contradictions the contradiction of Russian security with continuing NATO encroachment, the contradiction of workers in Donetsk and Luhansk against their Bourgeoisie and against political domination from Kiev, and nationalist and ethnic contradictions within Ukraine and its diaspora. But it’s primary contradiction is that of an imperialist dispute over the division of territory for imperialist capitals. Because, in fact, Russia is an imperialist power and part of the world imperialist system.
u/VinceMcMao - originally from r/GenZhou
I love how the Russian imperialists can prop up a comprador class represented by Assad in Syria, Iran jointly along with China, also the same in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, all th while maintaining a prisonhouse of nations within its borders. Meddle in north Africa with eurochauvinist right wing merecenaries. And then on top of all this engage in a war to to take over natural gas reserves for their own, and then so-called ‘communists’ deny this can be considered imperialism on a Marxist basis. Opportunism never ceases to amaze me.
u/deathtoimperialism69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Here’s an article supporting the assertion that Russia is not imperialist: https://mronline.org/2019/01/02/is-russia-imperialist/u/snapp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
That’s a good breakdown and assessment, thanks.u/Lilyo - originally from r/GenZhou
much of this article on China also largely applies to Russia toohttps://monthlyreview.org/2021/07/01/china-imperialism-or-semi-periphery/
u/deathtoimperialism69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Super interesting and well supported with data. Hopefully the whole “China is imperialist” narrative can be dismissed. If only people would read
[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[removed]u/deathtoimperialism69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Don’t agree. China by large is still an economy based on commodity production, not capital export. Will discuss more when I’m back in the office
u/ButtigiegMineralMap - originally from r/GenZhou
Also a similar question, to piggyback on this great question, what is revolutionary defeatism, and is now a good time to employ it?u/moderntingz - originally from r/GenZhou
the way i’ve seen it described is to realize that the interests of “your” capitalist govts interests in war do no align with the interests of the global proletariat and thus you should not support their war effortu/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Revolutionary defeatism is only for imperial core countries. The US empire, british empire, german and french EU supremacy.u/sanriver12 - originally from r/GenZhou
Workers in a capitalist nation gain more from their nation’s defeat in war than from its victory. The working class can be empowered by their nation’s loss—if the war is turned into a civil war between classes, the worker against the capitalist: a revolution.revolutionary defeatism only applies to the country you LIVE IN. A Westerner justifying attacking Russia’s actions on the basis of “revolutionary defeatism” either doesn’t understand it or they’re being incredibly dishonest.
Revolutionary defeatism means you want to see the downfall of NATO rather than frame the entire conflict as a conflict between capitalist countries to avoid choosing sides. Russia’s military operation prevented NATO expansion and that is a good thing.
u/ButtigiegMineralMap - originally from r/GenZhou
That’s a great answer. if USA never officially declares war and instead opts to use NATO to act on USA’s behalf, would wishing for NATO to lose be an instance of Revolutionary Defeatism on the basis that it would break up American-centric hegemony? Or would I only use it once the US Military gets directly involved?u/sanriver12 - originally from r/GenZhou
nato serves the interests of US imperialism, US and nato are the same thing to defeat.
u/FleetingRain - originally from r/GenZhou
Just from what OP posted, I can’t see how a commodity-exporting country with a GDP similar to Brazil can be seriously called imperialist.u/gaygirlgg - originally from r/GenZhou
Starting to think that while it is many bad things, it is more accurately called irredentist than imperialistu/CupcakesfromMars - originally from r/GenZhou
Yesu/Blanksheet911 - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes it is imperialist, however Russia is fighting against western imperialism as well, we are always going to have empires in the world, however US used to rule the planet ruthless, now with Russia we have at least some equilibrium, China in the other hand is a world Power but it is not imperialist.u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Who is russia imperializing?u/Blanksheet911 - originally from r/GenZhou
Remember that Russia is not a communist country and its runned by capitalist oligarchs, this is imperialism by default, it’s not like China that is runned by the party. However the Russian Federation is not as bad as western imperialism, the Russian population is not abandoned like dogs.u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Being a capitalist country does not make it imperialist. Is somalia, or sri lanka, or bangladesh, or the phillipines imperialist? Please learn to define that term.u/boppitybop6969 - originally from r/GenZhou
read this and Leninu/Blanksheet911 - originally from r/GenZhou
Correct me if I am wrong but the people of Russia only started to take control over the country in 2000. It’s still in process of unification.
[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[removed]u/Specterishaunting - originally from r/GenZhou
Do you have any evidence that Russia would have gone to war if it wasn’t for the war in the Donbass region as well as NATO agression? If not then you can’t really say what you are saying about Russia being imperialist.u/TheSmokingGnu22 - originally from r/GenZhou
Well the russian propaganda has a position that Ukrainian people and culture are non-existent, and it advocates the centuries of russian occupation of Ukraine (first by literal russian empire, then by USSR) and claims it should be taken back under Russia’s “great nation’s” control. It is widely supported by the same people that support the war and ruling russian government.On the other hand, the same propaganda acknowledges ukrainians and paints them as nazis who destroy russia culture and oppress russians in Ukraine. This is the part of the “freeing Donbass” argument that you’ve described. This is indeed an argument that differs from the straight forward imperial claim.
Imo you can safely accuse Russia of planning to “imperialize” Ukraine. It has done so for centuries (the Donbass in question was not russian, it was gradually taken over after conquering Ukraine, resettling ukrainians living there, and suppressing their culture). Russia was also the ones who instigated the Crimea and Donbass secessions in many ways, though it was of course provoked, and by that time it was heavily russian-leaning due to the previous centuries of assimilation.
We can take a look at Belorussia to get an idea of what a “healthy” Ukraine is in the eyes of Russian government. Belorussia is just an extension of Russia at this point - cultural assimilation, almost no independence, and a fixed government (really just a single dictator) to ensure it stays that way.u/Specterishaunting - originally from r/GenZhou
Why can y’all not get it through your thick skulls that the Ukrainian government literally has a Nazi Battalion OPENLY in it’s MILITARY. But I’m sure its totally just contained in this battalion right? Hmmm This isn’t Russian propaganda. You seem to lack any kind of historical knowledge on Ukraine.u/TheSmokingGnu22 - originally from r/GenZhou
Wait, I was talking about russia being historically imperialist towards ukraine, and what russian media claims, I did not defend the radical nationalism in Ukraine, or claimed that it doesn’t exist.
Happy cake day btw
[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[removed]u/Specterishaunting - originally from r/GenZhou
“Imperialism” isn’t making money for anyone here.[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[removed]u/Specterishaunting - originally from r/GenZhou
There was Already a pipeline Russia had going through Ukraine before the war. This isn’t an imperialist war at all on Russia’s part…Edit: and weapon companies flourish during any war that happens. That doesn’t mean it’s imperialist
u/Khajapaja - originally from r/GenZhou
It is not inter-imperialist conflict. It is Imperialist vs Capitalist Russia. Russia is doing what any country would do in its position. The war is because of NATO aggression, and NATO is fully responsible for it.u/parentis_shotgun - originally from r/GenZhou
Trade is not imperialism ffs.
u/snapp3r - originally from r/GenZhou
Could you expand and clarify?[] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted][] - originally from r/GenZhou
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