u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhou
u/emisneko - originally from r/GenZhouNow consider these excerpts from the aforementioned Guardian article:
For a reliable benchmark about the power of the party in China, you only need to listen to wealthy entrepreneurs hold forth on politics. These otherwise all-powerful CEOs go to abject lengths to praise the party. To take a few companies listed in a single article in the South China Morning Post, Richard Liu of e-commerce group JD.com predicted communism would be realised in his generation and all commercial entities would be nationalised. Xu Jiayin of Evergrande Group, one of China’s largest property developers, said that everything the company possessed was given by the party and he was proud to be the party secretary of his company. Liang Wengen of Sany Heavy Industry, which builds earthmovers, went even further, saying his life belonged to the party. [14]
Just as the lack of dignity of American workers isn’t merely superficial, but symptomatic, the same is true of the lack of dignity of Chinese capitalists. The periodic execution of corrupt capitalists and the humiliation of Jack Ma matter. Chauvinistic “Left” intellectuals may dismiss them as performative, but Western capitalists accustomed to impunity understand the threat loud and clear. The dignity or indignity experienced by different classes testifies more to the class character of a state than musings about its leaders’ sincerity.
u/sanriver12 - originally from r/GenZhou
add to the list
u/allinwonderornot - originally from r/GenZhou
China isn’t state capitalism.u/TheRealSlimLaddy - originally from r/GenZhou
I find it hard to not make this distinction. There’s some elements of state planning, but also some elements of free market economics. It’s fairly unique.I think you’d have to put it under the umbrella of state capitalism
u/JustAnotherQueer - originally from r/GenZhou
i will echo another top level comment which recommended reading Deng on this. they are using a socialist market economy to build their productive forces, which is substantially different than a capitalist economyu/TheRealSlimLaddy - originally from r/GenZhou
I’ve read a couple of Deng’s statements in his archive, but I don’t remember anything specific. The man’s brilliant, don’t get me wrong, but I may have just missed where he talks about what China specifically is/has become
u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhouThere’s some elements of state planning
Lenin’s NEP did not even have Five-Year plans. Five-Year plans were introduced after the state capitalist system was abolished.
free market economics
What separates between “free” market economics and “non-free” market economics? The word “free” seems to be an amorphous term that people just use whenever is convenient.
Even the USSR had markets which Stalin said were useful because for reasons of economic calculation since the Soviet planners were “inexperienced” at the time.
Even Mao was in favor of developing “free markets”.
Many people avoid talking about commodities and commerce, as if it were not communism otherwise. The people’s communes must produce socialist commodities suitable for exchange in order to gradually raise the wages of each individual. In terms of means of subsistence, socialist commerce must be developed; and, in the form of the law of value, as a tool of economic accounting during the transition period, in order to facilitate the gradual transition to communism. Now our economists don’t like economics, and the Soviet Union is also like that, who thinks that whoever talks about the law of value is discredited, as shown in a letter written by Yaroshenko. These people disapprove of commodity production, thinking that the Soviet Union is already communism, when in fact it is far from it. We have only been engaged in socialism for a few years, and it is even worse.
Lenin once vigorously advocated the development of commerce, because the circulation of commodities in urban and rural areas in the Soviet Union was in danger of being cut off. We too had this danger in 1950. Now the transportation situation is not good, and there is a semi-cut state. I think it needs to develop in two aspects: one is to expand allocation, and the other is to expand commodity production. Without this, wages cannot be paid, and living standards cannot be improved.
— Mao, On the problem of socialist commodity production
You need something more to distinguish between socialism and state capitalism than vague terms like “free markets”.
In recent years there have been a few commentators—both at home and abroad—that have asked if what modern China is doing can really be called socialism. Some have said we have engaged in a sort of “capital socialism;” others have been more straightforward, calling it “state capitalism” or “bureaucratic capitalism.” These labels are completely wrong. We say that socialism with Chinese characteristics is socialism. No matter how we reform and open up, we should always adhere to the socialist road with Chinese characteristics, the theoretical systems of socialism with Chinese characteristics, the structure of socialism with Chinese characteristics, and the basic requirements put forward by the Eighteenth National Congress of the Communist Party of China for a new victory of socialism.
These include: the absolute leadership of the Communist Party of China…putting economic construction at the center, adhering to the “Four Cardinal Principles” and to the program of reform and opening up, liberating and developing productive social forces, building a socialist market economy…gradually realizing the common prosperity of all the people…and an economic system in which publicly owned enterprises are the principle part, which develop side by side with diverse forms of ownership. These features embody the basic principles of scientific socialism under our new historical conditions. If we lose these, we lose socialism.
— Xi Jinping
u/TheRealSlimLaddy - originally from r/GenZhouLenin’s NEP did not even have Five-Year plans.
I don’t see your point here, unless you’re implying that China’s economy is reminiscent to Lenin’s NEP, which would be contradictory as China does have planning and a fairly thriving market economy.
The word “free” seems to be an amorphous term that people just use whenever is convenient.
I agree, though I could ask the opposite argument. What makes China’s economy a socialist market economy? Isn’t it the point of socialism to abolish markets?
Even the USSR had markets which Stalin said were useful because for reasons of economic calculation since the Soviet planners were “inexperienced” at the time.
Now this is interesting, but wouldn’t this mean that Stalin’s USSR was not materially socialist? Or would it mean it would be similar to current China’s economy, in which it could humorously be called “socialism with Soviet characteristics”?
u/aimixin - originally from r/GenZhouI don’t see your point here, unless you’re implying that China’s economy is reminiscent to Lenin’s NEP, which would be contradictory as China does have planning and a fairly thriving market economy.
Bro, that’s obviously my point. Did you not stop to think that “maybe the logical conclusion to your argument is the actual point you’re trying to make”?
You’re trying to say state capitalism has “planning and free markets” when the state capitalist system as implemented in the NEP did not have planning, so China’s system is obviously not comparable to that. Your definition of state capitalism is just overly simplistic.
I agree, though I could ask the opposite argument. What makes China’s economy a socialist market economy?
For the reason I cited. Public ownership is the principal part of the system.
Isn’t it the point of socialism to abolish markets?
You are approaching this from an idealist angle where the economic system is entirely the result of the politics of the system, and not vice-versa. You can’t just “abolish markets” and such a thing would lead to an economic disaster. Markets gradually reduce down in and of themselves as a result of economic development, even in a capitalist society.
If there is any “point” to the communist movement it’s not to achieve some arbitrary utopian system, it’s to raise people’s living standards, to achieve common prosperity, which requires liberating the productive forces by overthrowing bourgeois rule and establishing a workers’ state.
If you think we should “abolish markets” by government decree just because you don’t like them without any regards to the actual material conditions and don’t care about how that might harm material development, then I think you miss the point.
Now this is interesting, but wouldn’t this mean that Stalin’s USSR was not materially socialist?
Have you ever considered that maybe if your definition of socialism would lead you to say the literal freaking USSR is not socialist, then your definition of socialism is patently absurd and incredibly disconnected from the real world?
u/TheRealSlimLaddy - originally from r/GenZhou
There’s no need to be so combative. I’m on your side.You’re trying to say state capitalism has “planning and free markets”
That isn’t what I’m saying at all. I’ve said that, verbatim, China’s economic system is fairly unique in its aspects of both planning and markets. I would consider it still within the umbrella of state capitalism.
It’s intellectually dishonest to compare Stalin’s USSR to modern China, because you and I both know that they are materially, fundamentally, very, very different.
Your definition of state capitalism is just overly simplistic.
Possibly, but then again I’m not defining state capitalism. You are. I’m saying China could be within its umbrella of meanings.
Public ownership is the principal part of the system.
What public ownership? AFAIK, most productive forces inside China are not owned collectively. Even if they were, the productive outputs in the capitalist market system they allow far outweighs the production of their publicly owned industry.
If you think we should “abolish markets” by government decree just because you don’t like them without any regards to the actual material conditions and don’t care about how that might harm material development, then I think you miss the point.
This, again, is not what I’m arguing. I currently do not see the CPC slowly dismantling the market system it has been allowing since their reform era. Xi Jinping himself said that, paraphrasing here, “China will not move away from this specific market system”.
Have you ever considered that maybe if your definition of socialism would lead you to say the literal freaking USSR is not socialist, then your definition of socialism is patently absurd and incredibly disconnected from the real world?
You say “literal freaking USSR” as if it’s supposed to be socialist in name and with no nuance.
u/Dupe_City - originally from r/GenZhou
Before I answer that can you describe what you mean by “state capitalism”?u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhouan economic system in which private capitalism is modified by a varying degree of government ownership and control.
u/TheBlurstOfGuys - originally from r/GenZhou
That describes any capitalist state like the US or France.u/ThorkenSteel - originally from r/GenZhou
Which is kinda of the pointu/TheBlurstOfGuys - originally from r/GenZhou
Then state capitalism is just capitalism. And China is obviously not just capitalist.u/ThorkenSteel - originally from r/GenZhou
I have nothing against ML states, I consider all of them as a step in the right direction, but MLs in general are so close to getting things, I wonder when they’ll read Critique of the Goetha Program.u/TheBlurstOfGuys - originally from r/GenZhou
Can you use your own words?
u/sanriver12 - originally from r/GenZhou
you dont know what state capìtalism is. start there.once you understand what state capitalism is, you’ll realize the premise of your question is wrong.
u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhou
So then what is China now?u/sanriver12 - originally from r/GenZhou
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktankies/comments/qhdhej/what_is_the_ml_view_of_other_mls_that_reject/hics3kw/u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhou
Thanks, appreciate it
u/RedGuard8 - originally from r/GenZhou
China is socialist because the domination mode of production is state owned companies, a ancap might say that it’s not “real capitalism” since the government controls parts of the market and competes with the market but this obviously is not what determines capitalism, what determines capitalism is the dominate mode of production and the dominant mode of production in China is publicly owned companies(enterprises, whatever word fits)So basically just because there is production that is private does not mean it’s not socialist
u/Luckyboy947 - originally from r/GenZhou
Well it depends. Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. First question is do the workers own or control the means of production. For now I’ll only be talking about the government sector. The majority support the government so the government sector is worker controlled and socialist. however the private sector is not socialist and capitalist controlled therefore china is in part capitalist due to the private sector which means it’s a mixed economyu/RedGuard8 - originally from r/GenZhou
It can be called a mixed socialist economy but it’s still overall socialist
u/Slight-Wing-3969 - originally from r/GenZhou
State capitalism is not an accurate or useful term to describe China. But to get at what I think you are asking, Xi Jinping has said that China is not looking to move away from market mechanisms of managing the economy. Which could well mean China remaining a dictatorship of the proleteriat with a largely capitalist mode of production for a while. How long this is intended for, if there will be a change of mind, or if the material conditions of China will warrant a change of strategy in our life time is not something I will attempt to predict.u/gaygirlgg - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes, obviously.u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhou
I would like some sourcesu/gaygirlgg - originally from r/GenZhou
Have you not seen Xi talk about transitioning from their current stage to higher stages of socialism?u/StalinJunior7492 - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes but the party can claim it all they want. I just wanna know if it’s actually taking effect, or if it’s just big talk.u/Luckyboy947 - originally from r/GenZhou
Agreed actions speak louder than words. Is the government or private sector growing faster
u/Luckyboy947 - originally from r/GenZhou
I agree with OP on this. Actions speak louder than words. Is the government sector expanding faster than the private sector is the real question.
u/Redflagperson - originally from r/GenZhou
idk, i hope soon, its similar to the NEP which is state capitalistu/Rhaenys_Waters - originally from r/GenZhou
Obviously Chinese officials will say it is. This fact is out of question. As of how genuine it is… I’d like to know myselfu/Luckyboy947 - originally from r/GenZhou
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZhou/comments/sfi8ys/does_china_have_any_intention_of_ending_state/hut53ee/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3