u/zhiurovas - originally from r/GenZhou
Marxist-Leninists only please
u/Psychological_Log749 - originally from r/GenZhou
I believe Xi Jinping should formally apologise on behalf of the CPC and the Chinese people for the Sino-Vietnam War and aggressive policy towards Vietnam on China’s part during the Sino-Soviet Split. I would think it could rebuild some trust from the Vietnamese people for closer cooperation between the two countries.[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
This should also include reparations imo, to show its not just empty words.Say building up infrastructure in areas most affected by the war or something similar.
u/maenlsm - originally from r/GenZhou
The Sino-Soviet split didn’t stop China from giving full support to North Vietnam in their war against American invasion, including but not limited to weapons that could equip 200 divisions and sending 300,000 PLA logistic and anti-air troops to North Vietnam. So the Sino-Soviet can’t explain the so-called China’s “aggressive policy towards Vietnam”. In addition, China didn’t have “aggressive policy” towards Laos and the DPRK even they were close to the USSR. Have you wondered why China singled out Vietnam? The reason is simple: after its unification Vietnam did shitty things such as massive ethnic cleansing of Chinese in Vietnam, invading Cambodia, etc. The Sino-Vietnam War happened after Vietnam invaded Cambodia. So no, neither Xi nor China will apologize to Vietnam.u/choosenoneoftheabove - originally from r/GenZhou
you think vietnam stopping Pol Pot in his tracks was a bad thing? lmfao.u/maenlsm - originally from r/GenZhou
Another “Pol Pot’s genocide” parroting that whitewashes American crimes. According to the World Bank’s data, during American invasion and bombing of Cambodia from 1970 to 1975, life expectancy in Cambodia dropped by 18 years. During Pol Pot’s rule of Cambodia from 1975 to 1978, life expectancy in Cambodia dropped by less than 4 years. Please note that the World Bank is an American tool, so the real data should be worse for America and better for Pol Pot than the current one shows. In short, the so-called Cambodian Genocide was done by American invaders instead of Pol Pot.u/JuicyJunior - originally from r/GenZhou
Just because America committed a worse genocide in Cambodia doesn’t negate the genocide committed by Pol Potu/Psychological_Log749 - originally from r/GenZhouAccording to the World Bank’s data, during American invasion and bombing of Cambodia from 1970 to 1975, life expectancy in Cambodia dropped by 18 years. During Pol Pot’s rule of Cambodia from 1975 to 1978, life expectancy in Cambodia dropped by less than 4 years.
Let’s rephrase that to what it actually says: Pol Pot somehow managed to drop life expectancy even 4 more years after the Americans had already brought it 18 years down. It should have been easy to raise life expectancy above 23 but instead it fell to 19. Pol Pot was a disaster.
u/leninfan69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Noooooo you don’t understand westerner, my based Khmer king who was practicing a brand of nationalistic ethnic “socialism” was hecking based because he owned the doodoo head vietnamese
u/leninfan69 - originally from r/GenZhou
He’s back folks. I assumed he was banned but the half brain has returned. Everyone clap for the schizo pol pot apologist
u/sedlaghs - originally from r/GenZhou
I would like to see China crack down on traditional medicines more- especially the hunting / trafficking of endangered animals in order to create some of the more ridiculous remedies out there. I know there are some places without great healthcare that do still rely on those remedies, but I feel like they could at least try to eliminate some of the ones that are known already to be complete bullshit.Speaking of healthcare, I believe my parents (who worked as doctors in China before) mentioned that China could definitely improve some of its standardization of medical practices and also that there is a need for more pediatricians- the pay isn’t that great, a lot of families frankly are annoying to deal with (a lot of one child families place a lot of emphasis on their one child, which makes some of them really pushy). My mother mentioned a ton of pediatricians get high blood pressure quite early in their careers.
The entertainment industry is also a mess. Still too much white worship imo by the people in charge and a lot of the stuff produced is still very similar to Korean / Japanese / western products. I believe it will improve in time as China finds a better way to showcase its own unique culture.
I also agree with the other poster about China apologizing to Vietnam. While I hope Vietnamese people don’t just believe anything America says about China, I do think they have legitimate grievances / reasons to distrust China based on history.
In general, the CPC’s early foreign policy was… not great, to put it lightly. Their involvement with Khmer Rouge also is something to criticize.
*Also since some people disagree on who should be allowed to criticize- for the record, most of my family / family friends live in China and a lot of these criticisms are based on what they’ve told me; in addition, I have also lived there for a few months at a time during the summers / winters (especially when I was in elementary / middle / early high school)
u/bengrf - originally from r/GenZhou
Well, you’re definitely playing with fire with this question. Criticisms can make people very upset. Could this sub even handle the real criticism of Cuba? That’s the type of thing people just don’t talk about cause it only makes people very angry while confuseing them. Idk maybe it’s time to dig out the old documents China used to publish on Cuba at the beginning of the sino-soviet split, but that WILL start a flame war.However, I can say some relatively banal criticisms about Vitnam and China without too much risk. Vitnam is far too willing to encourage American imperialism against China. While this desire is kept muted, some members of the VCP should be careful what they wish for.
China has made far too many accommodations with capital, specifically British capital. These accommodations are what allow for China to be the world’s largest fentenal exporter, along with allowing plenty of other repugnant economic activity which takes place in China on behalf of western corporations.
Korea and Laos from my knowledge have never collaborated with imperialism the way the other countries in your list have, so I don’t have criticisms of them. I imagine someone more familiar with all these societies would be able criticize their paths to socialism, but I obsess over diplomatic history more than economic history.
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/KittyKaitlin - originally from r/GenZhou
Stronger ties is good, but aggressive foreign policy will lead to isolation. China relies on good relations with both the global south and imperialist bourgeois republics. China’s success is dependent on global trade and investment.u/ZyraunO - originally from r/GenZhou
I feel it’s important to specify what one means by aggressive foreign policy. Like, what moves specifically do you mean?u/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhoumore aggressive foreign policy
Trotskyist brainrot. You are a sick person if you want developing economies to throw themselves into bloodshed and conflict with great powers to satisfy your own sick adventurist perversions.
Absolutely disgusting and anti-human garbage. I am beginning to see what people mean when they criticize the baizuo left in the genzedong space
u/Basileus_Nikephoros - originally from r/GenZhou
While I agree with you, jesus fucking christ calm down and talk to people like a normal human instead of freaking out at a mere comment - treating online discourse like this, especially in a somewhat comradely space, is also a key indicator of internet poisoning.u/Quebecommuniste - originally from r/GenZhouanti-human garbage.
Maupinist detected
u/JuicyJunior - originally from r/GenZhou
What’s a Maupinist?u/easily_swayed - originally from r/GenZhou
does this sub not like maupin?u/Quebecommuniste - originally from r/GenZhou
Of course not dude’s a dumb assu/easily_swayed - originally from r/GenZhou
could i get something more specific
u/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhou
gonna cry?u/Quebecommuniste - originally from r/GenZhou
not really
u/KittyKaitlin - originally from r/GenZhou
As an American, it’s not my role to criticize the communist parties of other countries. Only people living in those countries, and people from countries effected by their foreign policies have a basis to criticize from. What good will my “principled critique” do? They aren’t even going to listen, because I don’t know things.[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
[deleted]u/KittyKaitlin - originally from r/GenZhou
Criticism on the basis of ignorance is completely and utterly worthless. No criticism I could level against the communist parties of China, Vietnam, Laos, Korea or Cuba could ever be sufficiently informed to be useful. I do not live in those countries. I have no connection to the experience of those countries. It would take years of study to even come close to a basis of any worthwhile critique, and then what will happen? It will fall on death ears. Those parties listen to their own working class, not some random redditor. Maybe if I was some high up in the CPUSA, I could get my voice heard, but what’s the point? The CPUSA is better suited to address America’s problems, not China’s.
u/ZyraunO - originally from r/GenZhou
I think there’s a misundetstanding here - critique and criticism have popular and academic usage. The popular usage (I’m fairly sure) is not in use here. It is certainly not our place to berate and belittle genuine socialist experiments abroad, but it is absolutely the role of all communists to learn from other communist movements. Part of learning is critique, which isn’t the same as denigrating those experiments, but rather is learning by asking what can be done to improve the situation.You’re 100% right that we in the US can’t have a wholly complete answer to that. Nor should we pretend to. Nor should we pretend to know better than our comrades in these nations. Nor, for that matter can we understand truly the struggles of any comrade without their input.
The point of this thread is to genuinely, in good faith, address what we think can be done in the future to improve things. This is like the one place where that criticism comes without serious issue.
u/Splizzy29 - originally from r/GenZhou
The only thing that giving your critique would do is give our political enemies free propaganda to be used against us. Not to say we can’t have critiques, but like you said if you aren’t affected by their government and don’t have actual material grievances, then keep them to yourself.u/Luckyboy947 - originally from r/GenZhou
Your gonna suffer from anti Chinese trading laws soon made by your own country. Look up “America food supply chain”
[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
I have a few1: Once the US stops its genocidal sanctions, the DPRK should really move away from “self reliance” and trade more with the other AES and the world. Hopefully they will already do this
2: Cuba needs to diversify its economy, as we have seen time and again if it relies on one resource (sugar, now tourism) it will suffer when these things become unprofitable or unsustainable (collapse of USSR and special period, covid)
3: All of the states should work towards computerized central planning to improve efficiency, especially the DPRK and Cuba.
Constructive Criticism is our most powerful tool.
u/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhou
ML criticisms should come from the people’s living in those countries addressed to their own governments. Not a bunch of Redditors who type on English forums about their own fantasies and materially baseless criticisms of a country they do not live in and participate in. A “good faith” ML perspective to another socialist country you do not live in is to leave them the fuck alone and let them handle their own business as they are uniquely equipped to evaluate and do like no other. An theory-cel hyper educated ML living in Australia or Europe will have shitty insights and shitty “good faith criticisms” compared to an average uneducated unidealogical rando living themselves in the countries in question.I doubt many on this sub has ever set foot in NK, or Cuba, or even China for that matter. What basis would they have for in the first place even diagnosing or understanding the contradictions of these particular socialist systems and civilizations? Much less positively proposing a solution? Much less (and this is key) having a basis for instantiating these criticisms? This is basically the same as liberal universalism.
Downvote me all you want baizuo brainlets
u/InDirectX4000 - originally from r/GenZhou
Criticism is a core part of ML thought. To quote Mao:The Communist Party does not fear criticism because we are Marxists, the truth is on our side, and the basic masses, the workers and peasants, are on our side.
If we have shortcomings, we are not afraid to have them pointed out and criticized, because we serve the people. Anyone, no matter who, may point out our shortcomings. If he is right, we will correct them. If what he proposes will benefit the people, we will act upon it.
Sure, such criticisms should be rooted in knowledge of the material conditions on the ground. However, I disagree that any outside criticism is inherently chauvinistic (which you seem to be implying). Should we support Gorbachev, as he was a politician in AES? Perhaps your real stance is (to quote Mao again):
In inner-Party criticism, guard against subjectivism, arbitrariness and the vulgarization of criticism; statements should be based on facts and criticism should stress the political side.
u/KittyKaitlin - originally from r/GenZhou
The difference is we now know what Gorbachev did, why he did it, and what the results were. Moreover, the consensus among Russians themselves agrees that Gorbachev’s policies were bad. No one outside the country could have reasonably understood that in full at the time. I get that anyone can in theory learn the conditions of a country and the effects of policy, but a social space wherein everyone is expected to have criticism of everything, no one is going to have the time to learn.It may seem unreasonable to you to trust the communist party of a given country while distrusting the critiques of outsiders, but really, who is going to take the time to study and consider what is to be done better than them? How much Soviet history, how much study of Russian cultural and economic development is your critique of the former Soviet Union rooted in? How much did you study China to level similar critiques?
u/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhou
WDYM chauvinistic? I’m saying it’s groundless and impotent. To the extent you want it to be grounded, you have to live there. To the extent you want it to be potent, yes then you become a chauvinist/universalist of sorts.This ties to you begging the question of “support”. What does it mean for someone in New Zealand to “support” Gorbachev or someone living in France to “support” Xi? Do you send money to them? Do you fight in their armies? When writing about criticism, Mao was not supporting westerners who did not live in China leveling “good faith criticisms” at the party. It was addressed to the party internally as most of his writings were, about the way they dealt with their own institution and combating dogmatism.
I also think you are begging the question of “knowledge of material conditions etc.” What is knowledge if you do not live in a country/only “know” of the country through mediation through channels of media and second hand sources? Certainly that knowledge is incomparable to the least educated person who does live in that country but does not read, and it cannot be the basis for meaningful criticism.
It is a different thing entirely if you mean “learning from their failures and successes” as applied to your own country, but that is a completely different character of question entirely.
u/InDirectX4000 - originally from r/GenZhouCertainly that knowledge is incomparable to the least educated person who does live in that country but does not read, and it cannot be the basis for meaningful criticism.
I think you are confusing different types of knowledge here. People who live on the ground will be aware of the conditions of their village, but not necessarily the broader context. If I wanted to learn about Chinese political history, it would make more sense to go to Kenneth Hammond (a well regarded Marxist historian on Chinese political history) than to interview a random illiterate peasant in China. The ground knowledge is helpful and should be collected and considered seriously but is not obviously applicable on the scale of nation building. What would they know about China/Vietnam relations, for example? The specifics of the economic trade situation China is in?
This ties to you begging the question of “support”.
Sure, I do mean “support” in the non-materialist way here. But having a correct line on foreign parties is important for multiple reasons:
- Socialism doesn’t need to reinvented from scratch each time we do it. Previous attempts at building socialism should inform our efforts. The Chinese themselves had criticisms of the Soviets, and this played out in how they structured their government.
- Discussion on these topics is often complex and requires further study of Marxism. Talking about AES is a good way to sharpen our understanding of Marxism.
- Support of AES can itself be dogmatic. This was my point by mentioning Gorbachev. For example, it is not widely discussed here that China does not support independent unions - all unionization must go through the state ACFTU system. The validity of this can be debated (I think it makes sense for their conditions), but I think I would not expect to see such criticism in threads outside this one.
u/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhouI think you are confusing different types of knowledge here. People who live on the ground will be aware of the conditions of their village, but not necessarily the broader context.
I think that a so-called “knowledge” of the broader context is impotent and irrelevant without an irreplaceable “empirical” knowledge of life and being in a particular culture and country. This is what Mao means when he discusses that you must make savage the body to civilize the mind. Steeping yourself in reality and taking reality as a premise will never be replaced by having decades of experience reading books and never stepping into reality. I will always value the expertise of any random Cuban or Chinese citizen regarding their own country over a so-called “western intellectual”. This is condescending racist garbage. This can be understood intuitively if you have respect for other peoples and cultures:
You, a person that does not live in this country, have such profound, unprecedented insight into this country’s problems? Email them! Email the CPC, email the PCC, let them know! You’re telling me that you, somehow, have discovered a crucial and profound insight that no intellectual, no policy-maker, no administrator, no ideologue, no writer, no businessman, no worker, in that country, has ever considered or contended with before? I’m sure they’d love to hear it and be “corrected” by you and set on the right course. I’m being sarcastic of course.
So respectfully, shove your “broader context” up your ass. Because the thing is, China has it’s own academics, it’s own thinkers, it’s own random internet “experts” on it’s own public fora. If you think you’ve come across this crazy world changing insight for them, you’d be racist to assume that they, steeped in that experience and reality that only they have access to have not already considered or come into conflict with it. And while you may not believe the random illiterate peasant is more useful for the people living there, not for some shmuck’s intellectual curiosity, guess what? China has it’s own historians, it’s own political theorists. I don’t give a fuck which books you read and what interests you.
You mention that socialism doesn’t need to be started from scratch. And you mention the criticisms of the Soviets. Doesn’t this help my point? The Soviet advisors and aligned powers were directly antagonistic to Mao’s faction and set China, through their “good faith input”, down a path that was in conflict with it’s own traditions and realities. You forget that the Soviet influenced model of highly centralized kolkhoz style farming in Russia was based in Russian traditions, the 100-men to a whip system, and that China had it’s own traditions of decentralized intensive farming that were temporarily obfuscated in favor of this foreign influence. So this actually helps my point by illustrating the historical inadequacy of “good faith” foreign advice in the face of fundamentally domestic realities that foreigners do not have access to.
We are talking about criticism. As materialists, we understood criticism is always materially premised and instantiated. And as such, your own personal ideological understanding and idiosyncrasies are besides the point. To fixate on the example of the Chinese, the Chinese have ground knowledge, this we agree on. But don’t you think they have their own Kenneth Hammond’s?
I take issue with this notion that there is this great knowledge and wealth of insights to be taken from the Western netizens, by the Chinese, for the concrete end of effectuating change in Chinese society, for the benefit of the Chinese people, that supersedes equivalents in Chinese society proper.
And I focus on the Chinese to give you berth. If I really wanted to expose just how ridiculous your position is, I’d fixate on North Korea, a country far less transparent to the West.
u/leninfan69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Taking your stance to its logical conclusion would mean having to accept the criticism of a Falun Gong adherent in mainland China over a Marxist historian/political scientist with half a lifetime of studying its systems and problemsu/FugueGame - originally from r/GenZhou
Do you think the Chinese people are incapable of determining what perspectives and criticisms are substantively valid on their own?Absolutely ridiculous. I am saying you need to acknowledge they have an agency and vigorous domestic scene of domestic criticism at all stratas. It is none of your business to decide what they should or should not triage regarding criticism. The implication being the racist notion they need westerners to help them figure out Falun Gong is a death cult? They figured this out on their own lmao.
u/leninfan69 - originally from r/GenZhou
Did I say that or was I merely telling you what your brain dead first post implied?
u/leninfan69 - originally from r/GenZhouunidealogical
Hoooo boy there’s that word again
u/Red_Xenophilia - originally from r/GenZhou
China is something of a gerontocracy, and it needs to be more progressive on women’s and LGBT issues. DPRK should allow more freedom of movement for its population.u/xfritz5375 - originally from r/GenZhou
Juche is an idealist viewpoint that emphasizes the role of human will over material realityI’m not a Marxist-Leninist, but this is consistent with Marxism-Leninism