Specifically, do you worry that Microsoft is going to eventually do the Microsoft thing and horribly fuck it up for everyone? I’ve really grown to appreciate the language itself, but I’m wary of it getting too ingrained at work only to have the rug pulled out from under us when it’s become hard to back out.

Edit: not really “pulling the rug”, but, you know, doing the Microsoft classic.

  • @RonSijm@programming.dev
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    338 months ago

    do you worry that Microsoft is going to eventually do the Microsoft thing and horribly fuck it up for everyone?

    I’m not really sure what you have against Microsoft, or what “Microsoft classic” you’d be referring to…

    In the last 10 years or so they pretty much moved everything C# related to Core, cross platform and open source. Even the decision making for the language is “Open source” - Microsoft is not really behaving the same as the Microsoft from 2000…

    Soo, I don’t really know how they could possibly fuck it up. They might add more and more features you might not like, but you could just choose to stick to an older version of the language

  • @atheken@programming.dev
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    8 months ago

    Everything is temporary. If we were talking about a niche language, I might worry a little bit that it could just lose momentum and die. But TS is a juggernaut. The only way typescript “dies” is if JS integrates enough of its features to make it redundant.

    Besides that, if Oracle managed to allow Java to continue to grow and flourish, I have confidence that MS can do at least that well. I also think lumping all of MS’s products into the same boat is a mistake. They have been pretty good stewards of their languages for decades.

    • @Rogue@feddit.uk
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      108 months ago

      Everything is temporary except for people’s opinion on Microsoft.

      The company is spending a ton on supporting developers, tools, and open source projects but every time they get mentioned people just hark tired lines of past ill deeds.

      • @alcasa@lemmy.sdf.org
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        117 months ago

        I think people should in general put as little trust as possible in corporations. Ensuring your tools, language and platform are as free as possible is a good idea.

        Just look at the problematic situation for VS Code extensions by Microsoft, which are non-free.

        • @Rogue@feddit.uk
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          47 months ago

          I can agree with the goal but sadly the corporations have already got their claws deep in the tech stack.

          Facebook control React. Google has its hands around Chromium, Android, Go, Angular and I’m sure dozens of others. Then of course Microsoft now own npm, GitHub etc. You’re making your life very difficult if you entirely avoid corporate entities.

          If we don’t give corporations credit when they do run projects well then there’s no incentive for them to not go full on capitalist greed and destroy them.

          • @steventrouble@programming.dev
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            47 months ago

            Corporations aren’t people and don’t behave like people. Giving credit to corporations doesn’t work in the long term, because people who work for them are constantly changing. The ones who did a good job may leave or get replaced, and the ones who take over may not care about maintaining their legacy.

            • @Rogue@feddit.uk
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              37 months ago

              Surely the inverse is also true then? People change, leadership changes, goals change so why assume the Microsoft of today is as bad as its past self?

    • @sagethesagesageOP
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      38 months ago

      I actually drew that same Oracle comparison. They’ve made the occasionally bullshit effort, e.g. the API stuff with Google, but otherwise Java is just kinda Java. Fair point.

    • @marcos@lemmy.world
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      8 months ago

      Yes, MS’s standard operation is to evolve the thing until it’s completely hostile to your intentions, but not explicitly enough to justify a tool change for management.

      They are currently in the “devs wanted” mode, it will probably be at least a few years before they change into “fuck you, pay me” mode again.

    • @sagethesagesageOP
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      18 months ago

      Ya “rug pull” isn’t exactly the best description but I figured people would know what I was getting at, ha

  • @Tyfon@programming.dev
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    127 months ago

    I’d like to point out that TypeScript is a superset of JavaScript, so if anything goes wrong with it, you can just remove the type information and you’ll have regular JavaScript.

    • silas
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      17 months ago

      I’d still have to do some refactoring in and around my classes though. There’s some syntax that is TypeScript-only, including things like extended classes.

    • @jeffhykin@lemm.ee
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      7 months ago

      If I take my json and add a .yaml extension it works. If I take my c code and add a .cpp it works. If I take my js code and add a .ts … it doesn’t work

      TS branches off of the JS syntax (which is great! way better than a syntax rewrite), but TS is not a superset; it does not meet the practical or technical definition of a language superset.

        • @abhibeckert@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago
          var foo = {};
          foo.bar = 42;
          

          Perfectly valid, and extremely commonly used, coding pattern in JavaScript - it’s essentially the normal way to do an associative array or hashmap in JavaScript. It’s also one of the commonly used ways to (poorly) simulate OOP in JavaScript.

          In TypeScript, it fails. You can’t treat an object as an arbitrary key/value pair. That’s a good thing… but still, it means TypeScript is not a superset of JavaScript.

          AFAIK that source code will be accepted by the TypeScript compiler if the file has a *.js extension, but that’s an ugly workaround and it also means you can’t copy/paste code between files. You have to rewrite the code.

          • @FooBarrington@lemmy.world
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            87 months ago

            In TypeScript, it fails. You can’t treat an object as an arbitrary key/value pair. That’s a good thing… but still, it means TypeScript is not a superset of JavaScript.

            No, it doesn’t fail. It compiles to perfectly valid JS that runs exactly as you’d expect. The type checking itself errors, because you’ve made an error - but the compilation isn’t prevented by this error.

            So yes, Typescript is a superset of JavaScript.

            • @jeffhykin@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              That is an important difference. Still lots of people, myself included, classify “compiler printing an error (not a warning)” as failure, even if bizzarly the code still runs somehow.

              • @FooBarrington@lemmy.world
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                17 months ago

                That’s because you’re missing the distinction between compiler and type checker. The compiler doesn’t check types, it strips them. The type checker only checks types, it doesn’t compile. They are often used in conjunction, though increasingly the compilation is done by e.g. esbuild.

                But there is nothing “bizarre” about the code running, since literally, TS is a superset of JS.

        • @jeffhykin@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          Type annotations. It can be as simple a adding any in front of parameters, but there are other edgecases too, and when you have a really big codebase it can be a pain to convert.

        • @jeffhykin@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          I didn’t say C++ was a superset of C, I said “if I take my c code and add a cpp extension it works”. Believe me, I am painfully aware of the not-a-superset problem between C and C++. My point is Typescript doesn’t even meet the very loose “its practically a superset” relationship that C++ has with C.

          • @mrkite@programming.dev
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            17 months ago

            if I take my c code and add a cpp extension it works

            and I pointed out that it doesn’t if your C code has a variable called “class”.

            • @jeffhykin@lemm.ee
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              17 months ago

              Don’t worry, none of my code uses that, designated initilizers, complex numbers, variable length arrays, typedef name overloading, unintilized constants, implicit void pointer casting, implicit function declarations, nested struct defintions, or any of the other exclusively-C features.

  • @abhibeckert@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Regarding “doing the Microsoft classic” whatever that means… I don’t believe in judging a company by what they did in the past. They should be judged by what they actually do now and in the future. So far, they haven’t done anything bad. And anyway they’ve been good stewards of recent products that they’ve taken over (GitHub for example).

    As for TypeScript itself… well my opinion is language choices should always be done on a case by case basis. So far I have never personally encountered an individual case where TypeScript is the best choice. They do exist though, so I won’t hold it against anyone if they choose to use it.

    • @Ad5001@lemmy.world
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      07 months ago

      Ehhhh… considering what they did to the .NET stack recently (removing dotnet watch from the open source builds to bundle it with Visual Studio and only reverting due to the huge community backlash), I think at least some cautiousness would be warranted.

  • @disconnectikacio@lemmy.world
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    37 months ago

    Its an improvement over plain js, but we say “you cant build a castle with bricks made of shit” the shit is javascript. Undefined errors are there using TS…

  • @Badland9085@lemm.ee
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    17 months ago

    I knew I remember something shady happening with .NET some years ago with dotnet watch, but welp that was pretty recent. Here’s a blog post that collected a lot of happenings and strung em together in a single view. Fear-mongering? Perhaps, but that .NET incident left a really bad taste in my mouth that reminded me that MS hasn’t really changed.

    https://ghuntley.com/fracture/

  • If it makes you feel a bit better, think of it this way: Typescript is open-sourced not to just get the public free-access to it, but also for the public to provide feedback and improvements. Without outside devs to report bugs, TS would be living [ and dying ] in its own bubble.

    This is almost™ the same tactic Apple uses for Darwin by making use of netBSD’s open source nature.

    • @Badland9085@lemm.ee
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      98 months ago

      I think you’re missing the point. It’s exactly cause Microsoft created it that people get worried about it. The EEE is an actual phrase found to be used internally in Microsoft, albeit being some time ago. Though there’s no knowing whether it’s still circulating now, it’s hard to trust them to be good stewards forever.

      • @lysdexic@programming.dev
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        8 months ago

        I think you’re missing the point. It’s exactly cause Microsoft created it that people get worried about it.

        I don’t think there is any merit to that concern. Not only is TypeScript FLOSS, Microsoft also has an excellent track record developing high-quality programming languages and tech stacks. Take for example C#. It’s been around for over two decades and if anything it’s getting better by the release.

        I understand the rationale behind the concern, but there is also a factor of mindlessly parroting cliches.

    • janWilejan
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      27 months ago

      Without Microsoft, TypeScript would not exist.

      I’m not sure you are aware, but TypeScript is not the first language to compile to JavaScript.

      https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4414558/languages-that-interpret-down-to-javascript
      https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS

      Without TypeScript, people would have adopted a different JS transpiler, one that isn’t controlled by a monopolistic corporation with a history of extinguishing open source projects.

  • @o11c@programming.dev
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    -57 months ago

    I’m not concerned about the Microsoft’s involvement. TypeScript shows an immature tooling ecosystem even on its own merits.

    I posted some of my concerns earlier, along with a basic problem challenge (that I can easily do in many other languages) that nobody managed to solve: https://programming.dev/comment/2734178

    • @spartanatreyu@programming.dev
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      17 months ago

      This comment just seems weird no matter which angle I try to approach it from.

      immature tooling ecosystem

      It’s over a decade old now. I wouldn’t call that immature.

      Looking at your linked comment…

      following a basic tutorial somehow ended up spending multiple seconds just to transpile and run “Hello, World!”.

      1. Install deno
      2. Create hello.ts containing: console.log("hello world");
      3. deno run hello.ts (time taken to run command: 0.037s)

      […] 3 different ways of specifying the files and settings you want to use […] 3 incompatible ways to define and use a “module”

      Yes, that tends to happen as ecosystems evolve over time. Typescript allows developers to use modern standards-compliant modules, while maintaining backwards compatibility for older code.

      embracing duck typing means […]

      One of typescript’s strengths is that its type system isn’t all or nothing. Typescript will support duck typers, but it isn’t forced or limited to that. You can add as much or as little typing as you want. In theory, this means that the language supports simple beginners up to experts creating turing-complete theorem solvers at compile time. In practice, this means a much smoother onboarding and porting experience.

      Have a “generalized fibonacci” module taking 3 inputs […]

      I’m not sure if this is the basic problem challenge or the hello world example was. It seems a bit ambiguous as to what you really want, but it’s easy to create a module that takes inputs and produces outputs while running on backend servers, in browsers, and in CLIs.

      • @o11c@programming.dev
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        07 months ago

        Obviously the actual programs are trivial. The question is, how are the tools supposed to be used?

        So you say to use deno? Out of all the tutorials I found telling me what tools to use, that wasn’t one of them (I really thought this “typescript” package would be the thing I was supposed to use; I just checked again on a hot cache and it was 1.7 seconds real time, 4.5 seconds cpu time, only 2.9 seconds if I pin everything to a single core). And I swear I just saw this week, people saying “seriously, don’t use deno”. It also doesn’t seem to address the browser use case at all though.

        In other languages I know, I know how to write 4 files (the fib library and 3 frontends), and compile and/or execute them separately. I know how to shove all of them into a single blob with multiple entry points selected dynamically. I know how to shove just one frontend with the library into a single executable. I know how to separately compile the library and each frontend, producing 4 separate artifacts, with the library being dynamically replaceable. I even know how to leave them as loose files and execute them directly (barring things like C). I can choose between these things all in a single codebase, since there are no hard-coded project filenames.

        I learned these things because I knew I wanted the ability from previous languages I’d learned, and very quickly found how the new language’s tools supported that.

        I don’t have that for TS (JS itself seems to be fine, since I have yet to actually need all the polyfill spam). And every time I try to find an answer, I get something that contradicts everything I read before.

        That is why I say that TS is a hopelessly immature ecosystem.

        • @spartanatreyu@programming.dev
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          It sounds like to me that you’ve taken your knowledge of your commonly used languages for granted, and assumed a new language would be just as easy. But if you watch a developer who is dipping their toe into that ecosystem for the first time you’ll find them making mistakes and running into footguns you didn’t know were possible.

          Regardless of the language, not having a proper guide leaves devs susceptible to the incorrect blogospam that’s out there, where engagement is rewarded over correctness.

          Ignore all of the blogospam.

          The two things you need to know:

          1. C/C++/Java/Go/Python have all gone through changes, growth and churn just like JS.
          2. Knowing the history of the ecosystem will go a long way towards helping you. If you understand why things have changed, then you’ll know how to ignore the bad advice out there.

          Here’s my shortened version of number 2.

          The beginning:

          • JS starts as a scripting language embedded into a browser
          • Different browsers try to copy each other but put in their own “features” pulling the language in different directions.
          • The amorphous blob that is JS starts to congeal and language standards are solidified. This standard is known as ECMAScript (named for legal reasons). ES1 is the first version, followed by ES2 and ES3, each adding useful features.
          • ES3 (released in 1999):
            • This is what you could consider the first long term stable baseline widely supported version of the language, where you can make anything you want.
            • Almost everything you can make in future versions of the language can be backported to ES3.
            • If you want to go by analogy, you can think of ES3 as javascript’s C99.

          The false start:

          • Work starts on ES4 with a massive feature list (including static typing, classes, modules, algebraic data types, generators, embedded xml/xhtml known as JSX/TSX today, etc…). It fails due to political infighting, and for basically being too ambitious in a single version.
            • This sucks up years of progress between released versions.
            • This version is commonly seen as being poisoned by 90’s/00’s Micro$oft and the dark ages of Internet Explorer
            • But the spirit of ES4 was released spread out over future versions anyway.

          The resumption:

          • The v8 JS engine is released, making JS really fast and worth programming in. This is used in Chrome and Node.
          • ES5 (released in 2009):
            • Adds native json support, reflection, and a strict mode to avoid some footguns with ES3
            • Think of this as C11
            • Some developers being experimenting with a more consise syntax in CoffeeScript that compiles down to ES5.
          • 2012: Typescript is released adding an optional and gradual typing system to JS (inspired by C# and ES4) designed for both Humans and Computers.
            • In effect, this brings IDE-style support for JS
          • ES6 (released in 2015):
            • With the lessons learned from CoffeeScript, a whole bunch of syntactical sugar is added to make the language more pleasant to write in.
            • With the lessons learned from community made modules, an official module spec is released and added to the language.
              • Known as ESM (EcmaScript Modules)
              • The community starts moving away from unofficial modules (CJS, AMD, UMD)
            • Babel is created to allow any developer to create and share their their own language extensions.
              • The faster feedback cycle from Babel allows for smaller and more frequent language updates.
              • Javascript moves to a yearly release cycle and ES6 is renamed ES2015
          • ES2016
            • Adds block scoping as an alternative to hoisting
          • ES2017
            • Adds async/await/Promise() syntax sugaring, to make asynchronous programming easier
          • ES2018
            • Adds ... (rest/spread operator) syntax sugaring, to make destructuring and variadic functions easier
            • Ryan Dhal (creator of Node) releases his famous 10 Things I Regret About Node.js talk. Announces his intention to create a “modern reset” of Node known as Deno.
          • ES2019
            • Minor changes
            • Deno is released
          • ES2020
            • Adds ?? Nullish coalescing operator syntax sugaring
          • ES2021
            • Adds ??=/&&=/||= Logical assignment syntax sugaring
          • ES2022
            • Adds top level await, making asynchronous programming easier
            • Adds private field syntax sugaring
          • ES2023
            • Minor changes

          The current state of things

          • Language-wise

            • Javascript has added a whole bunch of syntactical sugar since 2009 making it really pleasant to code in.
            • Typescript adds some really nice IDE support to Javascript and the vast majority of all libraries and frameworks are written in it giving that IDE support to Javascript developers.
            • Babel allows developers to create their own language extensions, which are frequently put forwards at for other developers to give feedback on. Useful proposals are added to the language on a yearly basis.
          • Runtime-wise

            • Node is considered the older slow-moving most-stable release of running JS outside of the browser
              • Think Debian
            • Deno is considered the friendly Node, coming with all the tools a developer needs (linter, bundler, tester, ts support, etc…). In the last 5 years it has reached almost complete feature parity and compatibility with Node.
              • Think Ubuntu
            • Bun is a brand new kid on the block prioritising speed over compatibility.
              • Think nightly linux
          • Standard workflow

            • Write in typescript
            • Let your editor check your typescript while you’re typing live so you don’t need to go through a compile cycle
            • Let your project’s stack compile your typescript for you.
              • If you’re writing a new project from scratch, Deno will run typescript for you.
              • If you want to build a new stack from scratch with no assistance, use the typescript project itself to check and compile your code into js, or use esbuild to strip out the typescript types to turn your typescript into js. (most developers elect to strip types since your editor/ide should be live checking your typescript anyway allowing you to skip a redundant compile check cycle)
              • If you’re using an existing stack, your build tools will compile/strip-out typescript for you.
          • Tooling wise

            • Most projects use Vite / rollup / and other “zero-config” tools to build and bundle their applications. Some older projects still use Webpack (which does the same thing, but with a more complicated config file).
            • Everyone uses ESM modules now, almost no one uses the older modules.

          For your simple fibonacci example:

          1. Create your fibonacci module that exports your fibonacci function
          2. Import module
          3. Call function in module
          4. Pick your endpoint:
          • Browser endpoint: Output result in console.log() and see result in browser’s console.
          • Server-side endpoint: Output result in Deno.serve() and see result in network requests/responses
          • CLI endpoint: Output result in console.log() and see result in terminal