believe it or not there were black people who were able to get work and buy homes. These things were not exclusive to white, christian, males. Im not even sure trans was on the radar at that point and yeah gay was generally closeted. The eighties though started tearing things apart although it was not really felt until the 2000’s. 70’s was the last vestigage of proper tax levels and social programs.
I don’t think anyone believes genetic things like that did not exist in the past, but is that really trans in the modern meaning which I will admit Im not sure of exact definitions around it. I mean there are plenty of trans folks today that are genetically perfect xx or xy specimens.
Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that do not fit the binary. Intersex folks are not inherently trans; but many were put through gender reassignment surgery post-birth and usually without their permission, so some do in fact, feel they are trans.
see its the use of some. some non intersex are trans to, no? so pointing to a historical body that is intersex does not necessarily correlate with historical trans.
I’m not sure I understand. Where did I say historically intersex bodies mean they’re trans? …are you talking about the grave found in Suontaka, Hattula in Finland? Because they did DNA testing and discovered the deceased had Klinefelter syndrome, which to very crudely summarize (and I apologize if I say this incorrectly) is someone mostly male-presenting with an additional copy of the X chromosome; so XXY instead of XY chromosomes. The deceased was dressed in female clothing of the time, and in the grave they found jewelry attributed to women in that time as well. That’s why they theorize the individual mighthave been trans as well.
yeah I feel its just mixing things though to point to these might have beens. The modern movement to me is individuals as adults (mostly) determining what their gender is which is defined as not the same as their sex. This is my understanding but im never really sure if I have something like this as you sorta have to belong to the culture to really understand it. I belong to my own and you will even get debate within a group about what it means to be part of it as cultures are almost constantly in a state of redefining even if core elements remain the same. So anyway the phrase there are examples of trans (presumably like the modern movement) having existed is different than the phrase there are examples where its theorized that trans individuals might have existed in history.
Trans individuals have been a thing since humans first existed. Historical texts are littered with references, and the history of LGBTQ+ is the same group fighting for rights since forever.
Many cultures feel it is perfectly normal, and considered it expected that some people presented as different than their biological sex.
It’s completely fictional that any gender or sexual minority is new or unique in the modern era.
I mean this gets complicated. Is cross dressing trans? Because cross dressers doesn’t necessarily identify as another sex. Where does an effiminate male stand or a tomboy? What does someone get labled if they identify but don’t otherwise want to take the trappings?
or be intersex. this is sorta been what at least part of this conversation has been about. I mentioned in another post but my understanding about modern trans would be a persons right to determine what their gender is which does not have to be the same as their sex. Im honestly not sure about my own understanding.
So then explain what you meant. Why is being trans before surgical augmentation going to be difficult, if you agree that you don’t need surgery to be trans. Make that make sense, cause it sounds like a transmedicalist shit take
It means there is little you can do about it at that point. Its like people dreamed of flight before planes but the dream was only realized once the technology was there.
trans before surgical augemtation is going to be a bit difficult
It means there is little you can do about it at that point
Not every trans person wants or needs surgery, we are not a monolith of gender. Yet once more you are insinuating that surgery is like some wright brothers fever dream. For some, just living and being accepted as their gender is the goal. Implying that without surgery, there’s little you can do about it, is fucking rude at best, and transmedicalist bullshit at worst. You admit you know very little, yet here you are telling trans people about their experience. You should stop now.
ok. you have to understand there was cross dressing for a long time. so it gets back to is cross dressing trans or whatnot and maybe in some cases but not in others. So if someone identifies as the opposite gender of their sex but does not emulate the gender in any way it sorta becomes moot. Its like just in their heart.
But spoiler alert: transgender people, intersex, non-binary and other genders have been around probably as long as we’ve existed. As far as recorded history, I’m gonna drop a fuckton of info below if anyone is curious about human history outside the gender binary.
A few archeological finds & early historical texts:
(7,000 BCE-1700 BCE) Among the sexual depictions in Neolithic and Bronze Age drawings and figurines from the Mediterranean are, as one author describes it, a “third sex” human figure having female breasts and male genitals or without distinguishing sex characteristics. (The Archaeology of Mediterranean Prehistory by Emma Blake, A. Bernard Knapp)
(1st century) earliest mention of transgender/gender non-conforming people: Philo of Alexandria and Marcus Manilius provided descriptions of transgender people during the early Roman Empire
books.google.com
the remains of a person with Klinefelter syndrome (intersex), circa 1050-1300 in Hattula, Finland
article on phys.org
Kalonymus ben Kalonymus ben Meir (1286-1328) wrote a poem lamenting being born a boy, referring to their (possibly her) genitalia as a “defect” wikipedia.org
A list of the 10 earliest recorded gender-affirming surgeries:
Karl M. Baer (1885-1956) born intersex, assigned female, came out as male in 1904; surgery in 1906
Dora Richter (1892-?) first surgery was 1922, second was 1931
Lili Elbe (1882-1931) transitioned in 1930, and was the first known recipient of a uterus transplant in attempt to achieve pregnancy; she died due to complications
Laurence Michael Dillon (1915-1962) had surgery in 1946 and was an early user of testosterone therapy, starting in 1939
Roberta Elizabeth Marshall Cowell (1918-2011) underwent gender-affirming surgery in 1948 and lived to be 93
Christine Jorgensen (1926-1989) began sex reassignment surgeries in 1952
Charlotte Frances McLeod (1925-2007) struggled with American doctors; she wanted surgery but they wanted to change her gender identity instead which sent her into a deep depression; was quoted as saying “I was miserable and I wanted to die” before moving to Denmark to have her surgeries around 1953-1954. She lived to be 82.
Rina Natan (1923-1979) earliest known individual to undergo gender-affirming surgery in Israel; it was finally granted to her in 1956, after being denied multiple times and attempting the surgery on herself
April Ashley (1935-2021) English model and activist who was outed without her consent; it’s believed her surgery occurred around 1960
Maryam Khatoon Molkara (1950-2012) first publicized Iranian citizen to receive gender-affirming surgeries (first surgery unknown; probably after 1980) In the 1980s she secured a religious decree from conservative Iran’s highest authority to officially allow reassignment surgery for herself and for other trans people in her country
Pre-Islamic Arabia (Khanith and Mukhannath; as early as the Rashidun era 632 - 661)
Cambodia, Laos and mostly Thailand (Kathoey; since at least 1296)
Albanian society, Kosovo and Montenegro (Burrnesha; documented in 1800s but can be traced back to the 1400s)
the Bugis of Sulawesi recognize five genders (Makkunrai, Oroané, Bissu, Calabai, and Calalai)
Southern Mexico/Zapotec culture (Muxe)
the Philippines (Bakla; prior to the Spanish colonial period)
Italy (Femminiello; since at least 1740/1760, see: Il femminiello, painted by Giuseppe Bonito)
Japan (in writings since at least the Edo Period)
the Diné aka. Navajo (Nádleehi)
the Zuni (Lhamana)
many various indigenous american tribes (the Two Spirited)
Igbo people of Nigeria (documented in the 15th century)
pre-colonial Inca civilization in Peru (Quariwarmi)
Native Hawaiian and Tahitian (Māhū; pre-colonial, but first published mention in 1789)
the Itelmens of Siberia (Koekchuch; first recorded in the late 18th century)
There’s so much more, but I’m tired now lol. Hopefully I made my point, which is we have a fuckton of lgbt+ history that no one knows about cause it’s not taught. It doesn’t help that the anti-lgbt+ propaganda likes to postulate that this is all some new-fangled fad, which it is clearly not. It’s our history.
Some of these fit and some don’t. At least to my understanding of modern trans. Many of the gender affirming surgeries were done in the gender assigned. Its actually the few cases were gender was assigned at birth instead of going with the general rule that the gender was the same as the sex. Third section makes sense at least to the limit of how much the cultures are understood. First section is a mixed bag. Gods and other fictional figures have been intersex and that is something at least most people should be aware of. Its hard to say with the rest but most seem intersex things again as opposed to individuals choosing their gender.
Well part of your problem is your comparing a time where we barely had rights let alone a language for ourselves up against a modern trans reality. All of the gender-affirming surgeries I listed were done by adults at their own behest. Also, this is a history rundown where I mostly focused on trans individuals, not intersex individuals, BUT, historically, most exceptions to the gender binary were all thrown together into single categories back then. In hindsight, sure, a lot of these cultural third gender classifications sound confusing, inaccurate, and too broad a category for our present understanding. But they were working with what knowledge they had at the time
Im not doing the comparison. Someone else brought it up. I don’t think it matters one wit what happened historically. Historically people were enslaved and unfortunately still are. Its about bodily autonomy to me.
Well it matters to some of us, a lot actually. I spent most of my youth in self-loathing, thinking there was something wrong with me because I learned nothing in school about gender and sexuality other than the binary. The relief at not only finally understanding myself but that others have felt the same way is indescribable. LGBT+ history is human history. And when people are screaming that I shouldn’t exist and that “trans is a fad” or “a modern lifestyle choice”, well, now I have the knowledge that throughout a lot of our history many cultures realized, without the aid of science or politicians or history books or leftists, that sex and gender are not a binary.
I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don’t seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever.
… history has little bearing on modern knowledge? Are you trolling me right now? Who says “history has no bearing” and actually means it. It took us this long to have a modern notion of sex and gender, because we’ve been trying to have an understanding of it for thousands of years. Take a wild, homophobic stab in the dark as to why it took this long.
Actually, seeing all your other replies in here I’m thinking this is too much trolling to be a real conversation. I’m going to go cause I really don’t think you’re asking in good faith at this point.
“I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don’t seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever.”
which is not a generality. I really don’t get how I could be using whataboutism as I did not even bring up the whole historical aspect but just responded to it. I do wonder though if folks are seeing complete conversations and indeed if I am. I have noticed a think where I get notifications but then I can’t see them in the threads. This makes me wonder if I or others are seeing all the conversations. Some of the replies I get here sound like I brought up some sort of trans is not historically supported thing and as I have said. I did not even bring that up as for me the history does not matter as historical stuff can be bad (if you saw my slavery remark). Its about bodily autonomy for me. Now as for why myself or others are may not be seeing everything its either something about the federation system but it could also be (at least for me) because I have blocked domains, magazines, sites, and folks. So maybe I did that to myself.
believe it or not there were black people who were able to get work and buy homes. These things were not exclusive to white, christian, males. Im not even sure trans was on the radar at that point and yeah gay was generally closeted. The eighties though started tearing things apart although it was not really felt until the 2000’s. 70’s was the last vestigage of proper tax levels and social programs.
You’re “not sure trans was on the radar” because right wing media has convinced you that it’s abnormal. Trans people have been around forever.
well trans before surgical augemtation is going to be a bit difficult.
My guy, theres evidence of an intersex knight buried with great reverence in, I believe, Denmark, about 1000 years ago.
But what made the knight intersex? The clothing?
Brother, their genitals
You do know what intersex is, right?
I don’t think anyone believes genetic things like that did not exist in the past, but is that really trans in the modern meaning which I will admit Im not sure of exact definitions around it. I mean there are plenty of trans folks today that are genetically perfect xx or xy specimens.
I agree on that very much, but that’s not necessarily the point I was trying to make.
However, there were indeed trans people in the past my friend, who were perfectly xx or xy.
Intersex people are individuals born with any of several sex characteristics including chromosome patterns, gonads, or genitals that do not fit the binary. Intersex folks are not inherently trans; but many were put through gender reassignment surgery post-birth and usually without their permission, so some do in fact, feel they are trans.
see its the use of some. some non intersex are trans to, no? so pointing to a historical body that is intersex does not necessarily correlate with historical trans.
I’m not sure I understand. Where did I say historically intersex bodies mean they’re trans? …are you talking about the grave found in Suontaka, Hattula in Finland? Because they did DNA testing and discovered the deceased had Klinefelter syndrome, which to very crudely summarize (and I apologize if I say this incorrectly) is someone mostly male-presenting with an additional copy of the X chromosome; so XXY instead of XY chromosomes. The deceased was dressed in female clothing of the time, and in the grave they found jewelry attributed to women in that time as well. That’s why they theorize the individual might have been trans as well.
yeah I feel its just mixing things though to point to these might have beens. The modern movement to me is individuals as adults (mostly) determining what their gender is which is defined as not the same as their sex. This is my understanding but im never really sure if I have something like this as you sorta have to belong to the culture to really understand it. I belong to my own and you will even get debate within a group about what it means to be part of it as cultures are almost constantly in a state of redefining even if core elements remain the same. So anyway the phrase there are examples of trans (presumably like the modern movement) having existed is different than the phrase there are examples where its theorized that trans individuals might have existed in history.
Trans individuals have been a thing since humans first existed. Historical texts are littered with references, and the history of LGBTQ+ is the same group fighting for rights since forever.
Many cultures feel it is perfectly normal, and considered it expected that some people presented as different than their biological sex.
It’s completely fictional that any gender or sexual minority is new or unique in the modern era.
I mean this gets complicated. Is cross dressing trans? Because cross dressers doesn’t necessarily identify as another sex. Where does an effiminate male stand or a tomboy? What does someone get labled if they identify but don’t otherwise want to take the trappings?
and whataboutism rears its ugly head
ha true
what exactly am I whataboutisming about?
uh, you don’t need surgery to be trans
or be intersex. this is sorta been what at least part of this conversation has been about. I mentioned in another post but my understanding about modern trans would be a persons right to determine what their gender is which does not have to be the same as their sex. Im honestly not sure about my own understanding.
So then explain what you meant. Why is being trans before surgical augmentation going to be difficult, if you agree that you don’t need surgery to be trans. Make that make sense, cause it sounds like a transmedicalist shit take
It means there is little you can do about it at that point. Its like people dreamed of flight before planes but the dream was only realized once the technology was there.
Not every trans person wants or needs surgery, we are not a monolith of gender. Yet once more you are insinuating that surgery is like some wright brothers fever dream. For some, just living and being accepted as their gender is the goal. Implying that without surgery, there’s little you can do about it, is fucking rude at best, and transmedicalist bullshit at worst. You admit you know very little, yet here you are telling trans people about their experience. You should stop now.
ok. you have to understand there was cross dressing for a long time. so it gets back to is cross dressing trans or whatnot and maybe in some cases but not in others. So if someone identifies as the opposite gender of their sex but does not emulate the gender in any way it sorta becomes moot. Its like just in their heart.
Heres a decent timeline of trans history. If you hate wikipedia, there’s the citations at the bottom to browse through. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_transgender_history
But spoiler alert: transgender people, intersex, non-binary and other genders have been around probably as long as we’ve existed. As far as recorded history, I’m gonna drop a fuckton of info below if anyone is curious about human history outside the gender binary.
A few archeological finds & early historical texts:
A list of the 10 earliest recorded gender-affirming surgeries:
Many cultures around the world have recognized more than two genders:
There’s so much more, but I’m tired now lol. Hopefully I made my point, which is we have a fuckton of lgbt+ history that no one knows about cause it’s not taught. It doesn’t help that the anti-lgbt+ propaganda likes to postulate that this is all some new-fangled fad, which it is clearly not. It’s our history.
Some of these fit and some don’t. At least to my understanding of modern trans. Many of the gender affirming surgeries were done in the gender assigned. Its actually the few cases were gender was assigned at birth instead of going with the general rule that the gender was the same as the sex. Third section makes sense at least to the limit of how much the cultures are understood. First section is a mixed bag. Gods and other fictional figures have been intersex and that is something at least most people should be aware of. Its hard to say with the rest but most seem intersex things again as opposed to individuals choosing their gender.
Well part of your problem is your comparing a time where we barely had rights let alone a language for ourselves up against a modern trans reality. All of the gender-affirming surgeries I listed were done by adults at their own behest. Also, this is a history rundown where I mostly focused on trans individuals, not intersex individuals, BUT, historically, most exceptions to the gender binary were all thrown together into single categories back then. In hindsight, sure, a lot of these cultural third gender classifications sound confusing, inaccurate, and too broad a category for our present understanding. But they were working with what knowledge they had at the time
Im not doing the comparison. Someone else brought it up. I don’t think it matters one wit what happened historically. Historically people were enslaved and unfortunately still are. Its about bodily autonomy to me.
Well it matters to some of us, a lot actually. I spent most of my youth in self-loathing, thinking there was something wrong with me because I learned nothing in school about gender and sexuality other than the binary. The relief at not only finally understanding myself but that others have felt the same way is indescribable. LGBT+ history is human history. And when people are screaming that I shouldn’t exist and that “trans is a fad” or “a modern lifestyle choice”, well, now I have the knowledge that throughout a lot of our history many cultures realized, without the aid of science or politicians or history books or leftists, that sex and gender are not a binary.
I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don’t seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever.
… history has little bearing on modern knowledge? Are you trolling me right now? Who says “history has no bearing” and actually means it. It took us this long to have a modern notion of sex and gender, because we’ve been trying to have an understanding of it for thousands of years. Take a wild, homophobic stab in the dark as to why it took this long.
Actually, seeing all your other replies in here I’m thinking this is too much trolling to be a real conversation. I’m going to go cause I really don’t think you’re asking in good faith at this point.
I don’t know as I did not say that. I said:
“I guess this is different experiences with different education systems throughout the country. Im pretty old and I was taught about non xx, xy conditions in both health classes and biology. Now granted over time you forget much of the details. So things like this don’t seem hidden to me. Now granted particular bodies that have been found not so much but im not sure when the particular archeological discoveries where made. Some may be after I was in high school. I still see them having little bearing on the modern notion of choosing ones gender as opposed to it being the same as ones sex (with intersex people by and large being in one and just trying to fit in). All the same I believe everyone has the right to be who they want to be as long as they are not hurting anyone else. When it comes to bathrooms and sprots teams we could always get rid of the distinctions anyway. Small ones have usually been either or sex with a lock for privacy and larger ones just need the floor to ceiling style stalls. Mens teams have for a long time allowed anyone who can compete we just get rid of the men/women thing and do leagues like we do now. A, AA, AAA or whatever.”
which is not a generality. I really don’t get how I could be using whataboutism as I did not even bring up the whole historical aspect but just responded to it. I do wonder though if folks are seeing complete conversations and indeed if I am. I have noticed a think where I get notifications but then I can’t see them in the threads. This makes me wonder if I or others are seeing all the conversations. Some of the replies I get here sound like I brought up some sort of trans is not historically supported thing and as I have said. I did not even bring that up as for me the history does not matter as historical stuff can be bad (if you saw my slavery remark). Its about bodily autonomy for me. Now as for why myself or others are may not be seeing everything its either something about the federation system but it could also be (at least for me) because I have blocked domains, magazines, sites, and folks. So maybe I did that to myself.