I recommend this video to look more into OSR philosophy regarding the rules: https://www.youtube.com/live/bCxZ3TivVUM?si=aZ-y2U_AVjn9a6Ua
5e has both too many rules and not enough rules.
It has very specific rules in some places. Item interactions, many spell specifics, grapple, holding your breath, etc.
It has very lackluster rules in other places. Social conflict, item and spell crafting, metagame stuff like making your own class or species.
I think a lot of people playing DND would be happier playing a different system. Just not the same system for everyone.
Exactly. It’s sort of an uncomfortable middle ground, but also just kind of messy.
And I’m tired, as someone who DMed it a bunch, hearing people act like broken or missing rules aren’t a problem, or somehow even a good thing, because the DM can just make something up. Yeah, not shit. I can do that in literally any game I run. It’s just unpleasant to do in 5e, yet I have to do it all the damn time to keep the game running smoothly. I’d rather have a game that either supports me as a GM, or is easier to improvise.
I think it was a different thread where I posted about how a guy in my dnd group straight face told us something like “the beauty of DND is we can just try out different rules. If we want to do a chase scene we can try it one way, and if it doesn’t work or we don’t like it we can try something else”.
I’m just like that’s not a unique property of DND. That’s just how playing make believe works. And I’d rather have a game that runs okay out of the box rather than keep playtesting as a DM, or deal with unchecked dm whims as a player.
That sounds familiar! Partly because I recall reading that, but also because it’s a frustratingly common scenario.
D&D is, for a ton of people, synonymous with tabletop RPGs. Often that means people think the things they like about playing tabletop RPGs are unique to D&D, even they aren’t.
What gets me are people who complain about Pathfinder 2e having more rules. You’re just as free to ignore them, and no one has to read much less memorize all the rules. Besides, is anyone under the illusion that players are learning all the rules to 5e?
This is why I’m switching to GURPS. It has rules for everything, but it’s very clear that you only need a handful of them, and the rest are options you can decide to use or not. I’m probably not going to use the rocket equations in the Space book to make space travel more realistic, but it’s nice that they’re there in case I wanted to.
Praise be to GURPs! It’s unfortunate that there seems to be a persistent sentiment that DMs should be making snap arbitration on a large variety of systems instead of having a rule-base that you can ignore when it gets in the way of your storytelling.
GURPS does this some much better because it does have rules for almost any genre and style you want, letting you have professionally crafted rules that have been playtested and matches to the genre they are designed for that you can use either way.
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DND writes its rules to be as quick to read and apply to basic situations, but then becomes unwieldy in many if the non-standard cases because they didn’t take the word count to fine tune the rules work as you necessarily would expect, and thus they become confusing.
Something like PF2E (while not perfect in clarity, but much better) has much more verbose rules, but they do a better job of making them apply to non-standard situations closer to how you expect more often.
It also suffers from not using consistent language and keywords in the rulings.
The more recent rewrites are better but there would be way fewer discussions on “what exactly does this mean” if there were consistent keywords for things.
…also I am currently writing a pile of homebrew to try and run a spelljammer game because those books they released inspired me to run a Treasure Planet campaign but didn’t give me nearly enough material.
Calling 5e and pf2e bloated with unnecessary rules, meanwhile Pathfinder and 3.5e are quite literally full of a couple decade’s worth of volumes and modules, in comparison to OSR?
I don’t know if you’re a boomer, a troll, or both
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3.5 has a ton of splatbooks, sure, but they’re expansions. You go in one, if you want, at character creation to pull out a cool class you want to play. Not playing something out of that book? Then you never need to think about it. It’s not like you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of all the hundreds of splatbooks; all the rules are contained in the DMG and PHB, just like with 5e.
Does the existence of a whale make it wrong to call an elephant big?
They’re not just calling it big, they’re calling an elephant big in comparison to a crude 8 year old’s drawing of said elephant (and of course the colouring is not inside the lines because it doesn’t have to conform to the consistent rules of an elephant). What purpose does that serve unless you’re the 8 year old trying to make your drawing sound impressive? See how small and unique my elephant is?
Meanwhile the whale sitting right next to the elephant is like wow that was a very specific callout on their size when I’m sitting right here. That kid must really hate that elephant.
It’s quite ridiculous. Wrong or right don’t factor into it.
PF2S is bloated with unnecessary rules. If that’s your thing, and I totally get the appeal of having a “wait let’s just see what nethys says abou — Oh apparently there are mechanics for this drug” moment; personally I find it really gets in the way of the session. Rule and move on with the story. Keep the mechanics to what they need. We’re ultimately dealing with a pretty simple underlying system: d20 roll high. All the subterfuge and wordy mechanics don’t really change that at the end of the day you need to roll a d20 and generally do better than a 12 or so to do what you want.
I feel like pf2e has just enough rules to empower the players to the level I like
The more DM fiat a game has, the more trust I need from my players for things to go smoothly.
That’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but for me structure is usually good as long as it doesn’t raise the skill floor too high.
Once I’ve got trust built and feel a bit more experimental, I like Dungeon World or even Universalis
Same I find it easy to gm and the players have enough of a grip of the system to be able to do something out of left field and I can find a way to make it work with the system so that play is smooth but consistent.
We’re ultimately dealing with a pretty simple underlying system: d20 roll high
I highly disagree with this sentiment. You do you, but this is not the general feeling of TTRPG players.
PF2e is a joke. It requires reading the whole rules and planning out a character for multiple levels before making your first character. It gatekeeps the hobby worse than FATAL.
Yeah, PF1 and 3.5e are bloated as hell. But you didn’t need to read all the feats for all the races before picking human fighter. Plus the people still playing those never used everything that was published.
Lmao, I think you confused pf1 and pf2. In pf1 you can build yourself into a corner and create useless characters with ease. In 2e the worst characters are still decent
Nope, I know both. They both suck because of the required over optimization. But pf1 at least didn’t have characters constantly at full hp, which is one of the biggest balance issues.
??? Have you ever played 2e? That shit is perfectly balanced. Just because fights are designed around having full hp doesn’t mean the players always are.
In pf1 you can ruin a character with an uninformed choice, in pf2 you can’t. The gap between minmaxxed or not has become reasonable in my opinion.
in pf2 you can’t.
I run pf2e and love it, but I really gotta call this out as bullshit. It’s actually one of the worst things new people can read about the game, imho. I read this a lot as I was learning the system and parroted it to my players. We’re all experienced with TTRPGs, for the record. Despite all the chat from pf2e players that you supposedly cannot ruin a character with bad choices, I assure you it is possible.
It happened to me once, and only because a player wanted to do some stupid shit. It was still an okayish character. The others played what sounded cool to them and had no issues. Relative to pf1 it’s night and day
You definitely can screw yourself a lot with uninformed choices, but they are less impactful per choice, and the base kit of classes are good enough that bad feat picks won’t make you useless.
The biggest exception here is spell selection, shit spell selection can feel really bad, and there are a decent amount of “trap” spells (not that the spells are bad, but it’s easy to misunderstand the intended purpose).
Yes, I’ve played it. And a lot of other games. PF2 balance is only okay and they had to do several annoying things to do it. Like how do you balance a mixed level party in pf2? The system really doesn’t like that, because of it’s number inflation.
Either you dislike the bloat of the system or don’t. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Did I say I still run these games? I hate 5e, pf2, pf1 and wouldn’t touch 3/3.5 again. I ran all of these in the past, except pf2 but I’ve played pf2 plenty to know I hate and will never run it.
I run Hackmaster and other systems (oWoD, Cthulhu, WFRP, …) which aren’t bloated messes. I just think pf1 is slightly better than pf2 because that was my experience. But that seems ridiculous to you, because you feel insulted or something. I really don’t care.
If you got to look up rules and nobody cares or wants to, skip it. Its my advice. Use rules only if its necessary and soemwhat contributing to a fun experience.
This is universal.
This. Our entire campaign is home-brewed using the 5e ruleset, but the application of those rules is selective when it needs to be.
For the most part, we’re following them, but if there’s a rule that results in a level of attention to detail that we simply don’t care to implement, or would have less fun trying to religiously adhere too, we just scrap it in favour of something a bit more light-touch and call it a house rule.
Rules provide a great framework to base your game on, but the ultimate aim is to create an enjoyable experience and have fun, so bend them and break them when and where you need to for the benefit of all involved.
One risk with this is when you have a new player join your group. They might expect raw and be surprised by a whole kettle of home brew.
I for one would be annoyed if I joined a group and found they were ignoring the rest rules. They may be having fun but I would have made different decisions if I’d known what they were actually playing.
Every change should be treated the same : you tell about them at character creation and you tell them during the game while allowing for their set of rules on the present session if you cannot think of them in advance. Homebrew, legal rules, anything should be the same. It’s not during a game that you tell the multiclass druid cleric that the steroid goodberries dont work in your game, as he’s trying to heal someone after a fight. This actually happened to me. Don’t fucking nerf the core of a character’s mechanics midgame.
Don’t fucking nerf the core of a character’s mechanics midgame
Happened to me once. Built a monk specifically for cool grapple movement interactions because I hate the standard “I attack. You attack me back.” attritional gameplay that DnD normally has.
Stunned a guy, used my 2nd attack as a grapple, started running up a wall, which both me and the grappled target will fall off at the end of the turn (but I have slow fall, he doesn’t). The GM says:
“You’re running up the wall with the guy still grappled?”
“Yes. Perfectly legal according to the rules”
“You’re grappling an orc fighter”
“Yes. And?”
“He’s pretty heavy… Roll me a strength check”
Cleared it up after the game, but come on man. I explained how my character would work in combat beforehand, don’t nerf me midgame.
Lol. “He’s pretty heavy”. In 5th its size that matters. If its medium its fine. Even if it doesnt make sense, perfect swimming in plate doesn’t either, but you dont just say to a player “oh btw in plate you die if you fall into water as you cant swim” while fighting around water for the first time.
Im glad you cleared it up after. In my case, I ended up leaving for other reasons but the nerf sticked. Mind you, if I knew at character creation it would be fine. But I didn’t.
This makes sense.
In my imagination there is a large set of players who “homebrew” stuff because they don’t know or understand the rules, and a very large subset of those players are also disorganized. A sizable subset also just don’t know what the fuck they’re doing.
So they’ll be like “oh we let the wizard attack and cast a spell on the same turn. Is that not the normal way?”
But for people who homebrew with intention and thought, yeah, what you said.
Yeah that’s fair. For the most part we’re sticking to 5e, and the consensus is always to check the rules first when we’re unsure about something and to try and implement it as intended, so we’re not losing any of what I’d consider to be core rules, like the way movement, actions and bonus actions work during combat, or spell slots and class-specific rules etc.
It’s more of our approach to more niche elements, such as the food and water needs relevant to each creature’s size as specified in the DM’s Handbook - no one has the inclination to track our food supply and consumption to the pound per character, so we instead stock up on provisions to last X number of days, and track our usage by the day. It’s just a bit quicker and easier to manage that way, and we can still implement the same effects in the event we run out of food.
5e isn’t just needlessly complex, it is an unreferencable mess that has very poor general rules with lots of exceptions and poor standardization. The rules for traveling are so misplaced that most players don’t know they exist, not that it’s possible to find them when needed. And when there are general rules, they tend to be unfun. Stuff like crafting has no depth in 5e, it’s just time + gold = item. It might “work”, but it’s just bookkeeping there is no hidden fun.
For fantasy, I prefer Hackmaster 5e, because it keeps the complexity and detail without dumping special case rules onto players. It’s not perfect, but it’s way more engaging and characters feel way more interesting. WFRP 4e is also nice, but not as deep (it does suffer from rules being scattered everywhere). I’ll likely end up playing OSE ot some point.
5e is pretty light though, and in most cases too light so the DM has no idea what to do and has to resort to “Rulings”.
PF2e on the otherhand is crunchy AF and its awesome like that. It doesn´t have extra rules for everything, its all based on the same framework, which is pretty awesome.
You see, OSR fans would argue both 5e and Pathfinder have broken core rules engine because if it was well designed, you could apply it to all situations and wouldn’t need separate rules for every minutia. By these standards 5e is crunch heavy with unnecessary things like “how to hold your breath”
But that’s valid criticism. Rules have to justify their existence
At that point, you lose a lot of verisimilitude, and that’s pretty important to me.
PF2 is certainly easier to run. But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it’s basically a video game system ported to tabletop. Everything is about the builds, not the characters.
The builds are an expression of character development tho.
Character development as characterization or character development as shonen protagonist?
PF2 is probably best game to play shonen protagonists, I’ll give it that.
Both, because it’s high fantasy. The way that pf2 is designed you can pick almost anything at every level. If your character trains with monks for some time, great level that! Your great grandfather was an orc, but you are a gnome? We got you covered. The bloat is in the freedom of expression. And complaining about the 3 action system is okay, but come on
What would it take to make it a RPG? Some characters are flawed in certain things while excel at others. But what you want your character to be, its in your hands due to how you build your character. That´s part of your character, same goes to the backstory you may have developed and inform your build.
Well they could stop gamifying RP and exploration so players actually get into character instead of just rolling dice. But that’s a pretty fundamental shift, so they won’t do it.
Are you one of the players who wants to “just talk out” social conflicts? That’s a totally valid way to play but I hate it. Or at least I hate it when the game has stats for like charisma and intelligence. I cannot be 20 charisma in real life do not try to make me.
No. I use different ways to resolve social conflicts based on what the situation is. Sometimes that’s rolling dice, sometimes it’s talking in character and sometimes it’s in-between stuff. Stop trying to shove me into some stereotype. Are you going to stereotype me as a Hackmaster gm? A Keeper? An ultraviolet? A storyteller?
I don’t expect pf2 players to understand my point of view, especially non-gamemasters.
But how does roling dice, when the outcome of a situation is uncertain, inhibit you from roleplaying your character?
It doesn’t. It just conditions players towards not doing it by replacing interacting with the world with interacting with rules and dice. Which doesn’t stop experienced players, but misleads new players in a video game mindset.
Okay, but what can a solid and crunchy RPG System do for new players that expect Skyrim on a table? And on the other hand, what can those player get out of a rules light game? They would be entirely lost. Which then would result in just make.believe, which doesn´t need rules to begin with.
Have you ever played with new players? I’ve ran non-dnd with new players several times. Including systems like Call of Cthulhu. Objectively speaking Cthulhu (BRP) is pretty rules light and my players had no trouble learning it. They just said what they wanted to do and I told them what to roll. They start to find the freedom in the system and get more creative. And a similar situation happens when I run more complex systems. I honestly have no clue what you are worried about. Players can learn how to play these games, they aren’t that hard.
To be clear, you’re mad that an RPG has too much G in its RP?
No, I dislike games like pf2 because the MDA framework they have designed is detrimental to the medium of roleplaying games. Because the mechanics encourage players to use PC in non-diegetic dynamics crippling the aesthetics of any setting or genre.
Let me get this straight: you don’t like crunchy rule sets, you don’t like character builds and progression and you don’t like rolling dice? Sounds to me like you don’t like TTRPGs.
I mean you can just read a story to your players or skip the whole tabletop part altogether and do an improv theatre session.
Where did I say I don’t like dice or crunch? I literally run Hackmaster. You don’t even know Hackmaster do you? Sure I don’t like bloated player options that cause power creep and slow the game down. But that doesn’t mean I do sloppy improv or storytell railroads like Critical Role or Dimension 20.
I’ve only been running rpgs 20 years. Has it occurred to you that you don’t like rpgs if you just play 5e or PF2. Are you even a gamemaster?
Maybe it’s just my imagination, but didn’t you comment multiple times that you want your players rather roleplay than rolling dice, play their characters and not the character builds they created and that systems like PF2e are too videogamey?
But to quench your thirst about my experiences: I am playing and DMing TTRPGs for about 10 years now. My groups are mostly running PF1e, Call of Cthulhu and Numenera, but for one shots we also like to try smaller systems like Dungeon Crawl Classics, Paranoia or Savage Worlds. I play with and DM for veterans and new players alike. I would say that I know one or two things about this matter, but who knows.
No matter what system we run, we never really have a problem with the rules and there is always room for fun and engaging RP. To me the overall critique in this thread sounds like a homemade problem on the DM side of things. You don’t have to know and use all the rules a system is offering you (looking at you, Pathfinder), but it’s really nice to know that there are rules for almost anything. And if you get the feeling that you have to fill the gaps with homebrew rules too often, then maybe the system isn’t the right one for what you are going for in your campaign or maybe you have to adjust your style of DMing.
This year for example I started a new PF1e campaign with people that never played a TTRPG before and they love it. I was afraid that this system could be too much for inexperienced players but they already get creative with the rules in combat and they engage in serious RP. They reached level 6 and can’t wait to develop the stories of their characters further.
But calling a watered down and noob friendly system like D&D5e being too complicated and rule heavy? Or calling a system like Pathfinder not a true RPG? Idk man. Maybe TTRPGs aren’t your thing if you really think that or maybe your approach at DMing is fundamentally flawed.
Yes, I want my players to roleplay. The issue I have with pf2 and 5e is that they require way more work to get into a decent balance between combat, roleplaying and exploration. Often ending up very combat heavy and characters that “excel” at non-combat encounters end up trivializing them instead.
These dice rolls end up replacing roleplaying instead of enhancing it. In addition because of the rules interactions, poor wording and power creep in these systems the ability for GMs to avoid burn out is low. I don’t like them because they are toxic to new gamemasters, I have no technical issue running them. I ran several long campaigns in 5e, 3.5 and pf1. I don’t have burn out issues with Hackmaster, WFRP, Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu, WoD, Ryuutama, … . It’s purely a problem with recent d20 player option focused systems and it will only get worse with more WotC and Paizo releases.
My GMing is fine. I make mistakes at times and don’t always follow my own best practices. But I run fun games in many systems easily. I don’t get why you are trying to gatekeep me out of the hobby. I don’t like two games because they suffer from fundamental flaws born out of ivory tower game design. If you can’t see those flaws, that’s you.
Maybe I should make my point clear. Players love 5e and PF2, GMs learn to hate them or quit. Because they are only noob friendly to players, not GMs. It’s why homebrew games are less common in them and typically only run by veteran GMs. I literally do not care how hard players have it to learn a system. Players always have a GM to support them, it’s trivial to teach a player. Teaching a new GM is frustrating when 5e and pf2 teach bad habits like everything is combat or a pass/fail roll.
But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it’s basically a video game system ported to tabletop
Uh… tabletop came before videogames…
Anyway, no. An RPG is a Role Playing Game, it’s a game where you take the role of someone, either created by you or given by the game (be it a videogame or not), and you experience the things that happens to that character.
Saying that TTRPGs are video games ported to TT is like saying that Lord of the Rings is a story written within the DnD lore. It’s completely wrong.
Why is everyone here so bad at reading? I specifically am calling out PF2 for being designed as if it was a video game. I am saying Paizo doesn’t understand the medium of RPGs, because they don’t.
Well, given their success as a release, I’d say that they do inderstand the medium, and that not all RPGs must be made in the same line. I’d hate to play a game where I rescind all power to the GM.
I know that GMs always have the final say in any system, but having an expectation of what is going to happen is crucial to me as a player, and as stated in another comment, GMs need to have fun too, and sometimes having a well defined system is what a GM needs to feel like all they need to do is design and let the game take reins for balance. I understand that there are different types of GMs, but that’s kind of the point.
Understanding the market is not understanding the medium. Why is everyone putting words in my mouth. I am not advocating for some crazy free form improv without rolls or some other ruleless non-sense.
I’m saying that 5e and PF2 are not well-defined systems. You can have a different opinion, of course you will. And specifically that GMs burn out in these systems because they are not fun for GMs longterm.
Depends on the game the group likes. More narrative driven game it can conflict and have issues
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
A good gm should be able to make a note of something or make a quick call especially in pf2e case were generic difficulty dc per level is given
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
I don’t agree with this argument. Balancing is the job of the GM. Unless the GM acts as a glorified screenreader who only reads a pre-made adventure to the players with no influence what happens. But if the GM decides what monsters you run into, the GM has more influence over the balancing than the game framework. So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing?
I mean, pen&paper RPGs aren’t a players vs GM game, but instead the GM plays together with the players to create an interesting experience where everyone has fun. No need for the framework to do balancing, because a good GM will do that.
So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing?
Because having things balanced properly in regard to the myriad options that are possible in people imaginations is hard, especially related to combat. Improper balacing leads to people having a bad time, while having an established, fair ruleset lets the DM and the players focus on other things.
No need for the framework to do balancing, because a good GM will do that.
But at this point why even have rules? A “good GM” can just entirely improvise a system.
But at this point why even have rules? A “good GM” can just entirely improvise a system. On the other hand,. if you’re the slave to rules, are you even still the GM or just a refferee? It’s a sliding scale people fall on, honestly. 5e tried to have it cake and eat it too, insert itself in the middle. You could argue it succeeded, but that makes people naturally drift away from it in either direction. I just think we tend to forget the scale goes both ways and there are more options than Pathfinder with rules for everything.
You sound like you’re trying to say that GMs who run modules by the book aren’t real GMs, and that’s some gatekeepy bullshit.
While GM decides what monsters to throw into players, they still need to know what they could use without it being either underwhelming or overwhelming. You dismiss this simply by saying: “just be a good DM”.
- New DM’s will want guidelines to start from.
- If combat is important having written rules help to use consistent ruling on same situation in different instances.
- Story focused DM might reduce amount of effort needed to plan combat, since there is no need to build it from scratch.
Disadvantage of having to look up rules then you don’t remember them could be mitigated by just saying: Look guys, I don’t remember ruling now, so not to break the flow, I will rule it this way, and look it up later.
So while for most players rule heavy systems are less accessible, they are actually more accessible for many DMs, and since mastering have much higher barrier of entry, such systems at least should not be dismissed outright.
Balancing is the job of the GM.
And some systems make that job easier for the GM than other systems. Winning all the time without challenge is boring. Getting TPKd every other session does not feel good. A good GM should hit somewhere in-between. So you either have a system that helps you do that or you really need to have a lot of experience.
Yes, the GM balances - they decide what type and how hard the encounters will be. But after that decision is made, it’s the job of the system to provide the GM with tools to build that encounter and help me balance things: How much skeletons provide the difficulty I want? Is a lich too much? Red dragon or white dragon?
In 5e, you don’t have the proper tools imo - the challenge rating is next to useless. In PF2, you have something akin to point buy for encounters - and if it says the encounter will be “moderate threat” - then you can trust that in 99% of the cases.
But at the end of the day, as a GM, if I want to provide my players with a hard, but fair fight, I don’t want to have to guess what will work and what won’t. Yes, with a lot of experience I will have an idea of that, but why would I pay for a system that just offloads the hard part of their game design to me? Good encounter-building tools don’t get in the way of your creativity.
5e has also undermined experience by constantly introducing powercreep. So even after years of running, 5e is frustrating to run.
So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing
Because they should have fun too? Having to rule and improvise everything makes for a harder job for them, needing to keep track of everything to make it consistent, and it’s also bad for players too, since they don’t really know what to expect.
The framework helps the GM be able to do so, its another tool.
I mainly say that in such a way that if a character is thought to be a pusher the player would know that to push I have to be this close and cant push something thats x times bigger (or some other thing). A GM can (and should) adjust and change things if it would make it more fun for the table but the framework helps understand the world better. for some parts the GM is not directing but explaining what happened.
I push the rock off the edge of the cliff, bar something else, it should fall. The GM at that point is giving the results of that action, what is the result? the GM could simply say that it fell and hurt someone it landed on nearly killing them. the issue comes when the same situation comes up and the GM does something different because they think it should do differently (a different GM more then likely ) this breaks flow if things are different. (assuming all things are the same in both situations for simplicity of course). The Frame work put that a rock fall would deal X amount for how far it fell and the players would have the knowledge (while it would be slightly meta, it would be a “world” known if the rock would deal less damage then the pointy sword XP )
That’s what I meant by balance across areas, expectations are known on what some cause and effects are. Frameworks are great ways to help guide things through HOWEVER, a giving framework/gamesystem is not perfect nor a fit all for all game types and tables. A Group also shouldn’t need to “go into the weeds” constantly (or at all during a session), something made on the fly or close enough is good to keep things moving.
I mean, pen&paper RPGs aren’t a players vs GM game, but instead the GM plays together with the players to create an interesting experience where everyone has fun.
Full Agree, but the next part is that the Framework helps the GM do the balancing
But if you have the tools that tell you how to make differently balanced encounters, it makes the job of balancing the game waaaay easier.
Keep balance for computer games. If I’m playing an RPG I want to be able to do crazy things if I plan and execute it properly. And rules for stumble attacks of opportunity for holy clerics of the sun just get in the way of the good stuff.
This is entirely correct. Balance does not matter in most games, because most games have resources that are depleted over a long term. You don’t need balance when healing takes weeks or difficult to replace resources.
For games like 5e and pf2, where characters constantly are at full health, spells and equipment, combat needs to almost kill the party every time to be worth rolling dice.
Yes; or be an incredibly long boring slog because it needs to divorce the party from so many resources.
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Seriously. 5e is already a watered-down, anemic shadow of what 3.5 was… and this is too complex?
Being less complex than 3.5 isn’t indicator of being simple, that bar is on the floor.
I would say there are plenty of systems that fail at being less complex than 3.5. If I never have to do GURPS math again, for instance…
It’s not the complexity. It’s the bloat, terrible interactions and game dynamics. 3.5 didn’t suffer from gm burn out, but 5e does. Because 5e is a bigger mess.
Not on 3.5 per se, but I had years long GM burnout after running my first Pathfinder 1e campaign. Bad memories from it were what actually kept me from giving Pathfinder 2e a chance for a long time.
5e has too many rules? If anything it seems to be lacking rules. D&D in general has too many options, but 5e often has nothing if you want rules to handle specific non-combat situations,
When systems go even lighter, it stops even feeling like we are playing a Game, and it starts feeling like annotated improv, which is very much not what I want to play. It never feels right to me as a player to be making sweeping declarations without knowledge of what the GM and the other players are planning.
Okay, explain to me why do you need rules for holding your breath in 5e. Because that’s a good example of too many rules, in OSR you would use something already existing.
And you do you, but really the OSR tend to teach players to find ways to avoid rolling altogether by stacking deck in their favor before attempting something.
Frankly I could point it right back at you as the example of a good thing to have. If you need to dive underwater without equipment or cross smoke during a fire, it’s useful to have a reference of how long you can keep at it, how many rounds does that take, how much distance you can cross, what happens once you can’t keep at it anymore. We are talking about adventurers, it’s surprising that this is somehow thought of as an irrelevant edge case.
Are we expecting that the player should always have spells or some magic scuba for this?
I really don’t get what’s with OSR and not wanting to roll. I’m playing an RPG, I’m up for rolling. Though in this case, the rule does not even require rolling until you are already drowning.
Oooor, 1 con roll. It can be that easy
1 con roll for what? A turn? A minute? 10 meters of movement?
The value of more thorough rules is setting common expectations among everyone. If you’ll just keep making it up by vibes, you don’t need any system. You might not even need dice,
Per turn. We already have rules for difficult terrain and for movement. Adding more than that is completely unnecessary
As others have expressed pretty well, a game that fucks up its own core system is bad game design.
5e keeps on breaking its own core system. Pf2e tries to make everything work with the core system, that’s why its bloat is less confusing than 5es, but it’s still there for the sake of complex combat options
I wouldn’t call that a fuck up by any measure. This seems meaningfully distinct than just “difficult terrain”, since its a hazard in itself. It’s not a matter of just going slow, just staying there is dangerous. Not to mention it can compound with difficult terrain.
In practice, I’d still prefer the 5e rule where everyone has at least some time they can manage being in there as opposed to just rolling con and having your wizard drown immediately when they touch water like it is a video game.
There is a survival skill in the core of the system, right?
For the few times your players want to swim a lot underwater OR if you use monsters designed to drown them long term
Okay, explain to me why do you need rules for holding your breath in 5e.
Because water is generally everywhere and you might go in it? Surviving poisonous gases? Strangulation? If you wanted to point at rarely used rules there’s a plethora of better options to pick. This is more like asking why do you need rules for combat.
Except the rules are written in such way that they render holding breat irrelevant. You may as well write “unless in combat a character can hold their breath. When in combat, you must roll concentration at end of your turn or suffer level of exhaustion. DM may decide to treat particularly dangerous or prolonged situation as combat at their discression”. And done, you didn’t need to invent new rules just for it, you used an existing system. You could even simplyfy it further and just slap it under concentration rules.
Me and OSR are a complete mismatch in execution. But we work in theory and design. Where we clash is where the meme is. Simple basic rules that are to be used in pretty much every situation. Where the GM is empowered to make those rulings. Where the GM is King.
I have tried running them and constantly kept asking myself “according to the rules what am I supposed to do?” as I want to run systems as they want to be ran. What is a failure? How does the outcome space look like? And when I get to play I feel I get to relinquish so much control to the GM that I feel almost powerless. The GMs rulings and fiat rules. Sure these are my experiences and I can love OSRs and their designs while not wanting to acctually play them.
Meh, don’t play it, then. Why turn everything into a competiton?
Because
editionsystem wars are fun?(in moderation)
Removed by mod
they merely want to play pf2e without admitting it
In my case, I wanted to play pf2e without knowing it. I’ve been running a DnD curse of Strahd campaign, and I’ve been getting more and and more irritated at long rests, challenge ratings being meaningless, and martial vs spellcaster balance. Pf2e solves all those issues, and I didn’t even realize till I sat down to do prep for a campaign.
Removed by mod
Simple rules that can describe almost every situation are also rules that over-generalize characters to the detriment of options (everyone’s noticing the same things, instead of perception allowing more observant characters to do what they could do), over-include the player’s capabilities in place of the character’s. (Players conversational skills failing to match with those of the character they intend to play), overly abstract what they describe (a monster’s “power” or a character’s actual abilities meaning something in adjudication but nothing consistent/concrete enough in-world), or demand a DM adjudicate without reinforcement or restriction (In the absence of rules every corner case ruling risks the danger of turning the table into a debate between PCs and the DM, inviting rapid ends and either producing embittered DMs or embittered players* - especially under the “pack it up” approach the video suggests - and helping to increase combative tables in the future.)
The games that OSR takes inspiration from did a lot right in their mortal power-level, reasonable growth, real risk of danger, and humanistic tones but if you’re trying to sell me that the growth of rules that followed aren’t a direct result of weaknesses in those games? I don’t think we’ll agree.
*The “Dorkness Rising” problem, for a slightly more light-hearted allusion.
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but you can try games Powered by the Apocalypse!
Played in few one-shots, wish I could get into a longer game but I’m busy between running 5e, playing Vampire and trying to get second campaign in fate or BitD going.
I dunno. Every time I try to make a fighter. I have problems with the rules. Like, I wanna suplex an orc. What do I even roll?
I don’t think that’s in the rules. Like, at all. The unarmed fighting style allows you to deal damage to a creature grappled by you, the grappler feat allows you to pin a creature you grappled (which is just fucking useless since both of you become restrained), and you can make a shove attack to push a creature prone. But there’s nothing in the basic rules about an unarmed attack that deals damage and knocks the target prone.
The alternatives for flavoring are:
- Battle Master fighter, trip attack. Technically it must be a weapon attack, but if you have the unarmed fighting style, a natural weapon, or are a monk multiclass, I’d be inclined to allow it.
- Open Hand monk, Open Hand technique. This is probably the best alternative that is 100% RAW.
Of course a more permissive DM (like me) could allow you to make a fairly hard athletics check once you have grappled the orc and have two free hands, then resolve it as a 2d6+STR bludgeoning damage attack.
That’s actually really clean ways to handle it. I am impressed. Any chance you would have ideas about more basic wrestling moves? Choke hold? Arm bar?
I’m not a wrestler or a wrestling fan, so no clue for most of them. Bars and holds… well, I think the automatic damage to the grappled creature that is dealt with the unarmed fighting style is meant to symbolize damage dealt by various holds and bars, so that would apply here.
Airway chokes are extremely impractical in D&D; every creature can hold their breath for a number of minutes equal to their CON modifier with a minimum of 1, and that means 10 rounds. I wouldn’t bother trying to simulate that, just deal the 1d4 damage and move on.
Blood choke… well, that’s a different matter entirely. I would most definitely require the grappler feat and the unarmed fighting style for this. Say, you forgo the automatic damage to the grappled target and instead force the target to make a CON save, DC = 8 + your PB + your STR mod. If the target fails, it gains a level of temporary exhaustion (that lasts while you’re choking it), if it fails by more than 5 then it gains 2 levels, and if it hits 6 levels it falls unconscious.
That is probbaly the way to do. It doesn’t feel right to me. I think. Like, I can find you a video of a six year old choking a processional fighter unconscious in 6-12 seconds. The only strength involved would be getting into that position you know. The air choke thing kinda fits with what we observe in realmlife better than what I woudl ahve thought though. For stuff like arm bars or joint hold manuvers it is almost trivially easy to break someone’s arm with a well placed move. Pro fighters often get injured in training when they are trying not to you know. Which would interfere with somatic components at least. The numbers you talked about make sense in terms of a low-level fighter and a peasant with 1d4 hp. But realistically an arch magus would be just as vulnerable to being triangle chocked by a farm boy as the other farmers he us used to wrestling with at festivals.
The problem with this is combat balance. I wouldn’t want to give players an ability that can take out an archmage in 2 turns, no save, without any resources used.
It is unbalanced, but it is realistic. It is like those old tired discussions about a little kid with a gun vs a high-level warrior.
It’s a game, not a simulator. I mean, how would I handle fireballs then? Would I roll for lung damage due to the targets breathing in hot air (enforcing realistic consequences), or would I just disallow the spell because magic is not realistic? Or if the enemy gets shot by an arrow, would I roll for organ damage?
And of course you have to account for the fun of all players. Would it be fun for the wrestler player to take out any humanoid in two turns? Probably. Possibly. Would it also be fun for the archer and the swordsman who still have to play by the normal game rules instead of the power fantasy of a “hurr durr wrestling is da ultimate martial art” player, and have to actually use their attacks to overcome the enemies’ AC and whittle down their HP? Doubtful. What’s the point of having them around if the wrestler can just choke everything because that’s the part of combat that the DM suddenly starts simulating realistically?
Either enemies can survive a dozen arrows, being roasted alive in their armor for a minute, being stabbed with a rapier a lot, etc… and they can last long enough versus a wrestler that just choking them doesn’t become the dominant strategy, or they can be choked out in a realistic timeframe but they can also be instakilled by an arrow or a sword.
If you only take one element of the game and turn it “realistically” OP while the rest remain fantasy, you’re liable to fuck up the whole game for everybody else. Now there could be a merit in playing “dark and gritty, all damage is super lethal” games but then that’s not really D&D anymore, something like Mörk Borg might be better for it.
I think there’s a rules oversight on the choking side of things; while a creature can hold it’s breath for a minimum of 30 seconds (if it has a negative con modifier, which hardly ever comes up), the next paragraph of that rule says: “When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round).” (emphasis mine) So I’d say that there’s a difference between holding your breath, and being actively strangled- the latter I’d probably rule as a second opposed athletics check during a grapple instead of dealing damage, which puts the creature down after Con Mod consecutive successes.
I don’t find 5e bloated exactly. But I do think it has a few too many systems in place, sometimes with overlapping use-cases.
Like attacks, skill checks, saves… They’re all basically the same thing, an opposed check, but they have slightly different rules. Sometimes the player is rolling against a target, but sometimes the target is rolling to save against? It’s a little strange, and adds a bit of extra complexity where I don’t really think it’s necessary.
A lot of it is just legacy systems that are kept because it wouldn’t be D&D without them.
That’s why I enjoy Weird Wizard and Demon Lord. They streamline this overlap pretty well and removed the bloat
Also because if they made a simple system, they wouldn’;t be able to sell more books.
It’s nice so you can strategize and not just roll against a high ac all the time.
You could force a Dex check against a slow tank or an intelligence save against an authoritarian.
I’m not complaining about having different kinds of opposed checks. I like that there are lots of different things to target, in fact I wish different kinds of checks were more accessible so that combat was more varied.
I just find it weird that they have different game mechanics. Like, attacking has the player rolling against a defender’s static DC. Except actually sometimes the defender rolls to save against an attacker’s static DC? And Dex saves are actually represented twice, once as an actual save to dodge things, and once as AC. Precisely because there are those two overlapping systems at play.
AC is more than a dex save… And in fact may not involve dex at all if the target is wearing heavy armor.
It’s a very consistent system. Direct, targeted attacks with a physical manifestation (that is, some kind of targeted projectile or weapon swing) roll against the target’s general-purpose defense stat (AC). Indirect attacks (e.g, fireball) or things that are otherwise simply “happening” to the target has the target rolling a save of some sort to resist the effects somehow (dodge out of the way, resist mental influence, hold themselves upright, etc.). There’s nothing arbitrary about it, and a unified defense system would no doubt involve a lot of special-casing/ad-hoc calculations to be at all worthwhile, to the point at which it would be far more cumbersome and confusing.
Let’s say we only use AC as a defense and have no saves. How does a spell like Hold Person work? Does the target use their wisdom modifer instead of their dex modifer for calculating AC? Does the armor they’re wearing affect their defense against it? What about proficiencies or other bonuses? Since the target is no longer making a roll, how do buffs to protect against the effect (e.g, bardic inspiration) work? I don’t think there’s a way to do it that is not more convoluted.
Skill checks don’t really overlap at all, other than the fact that they use the player’s attributes, I guess.
Are you going to reinvent 4e? Because a lot of attempts to fix 5e turn into 4e.
I think it worked like Everyone has a few defenses. Probably Armor, reflex, will, fortitude. Write them down on your sheet. They can receive bonuses from different things. All attacks target one (or more, maybe, if you want to get fancy) defense. Attacker always rolls. Easy peasy.
I wasn’t trying to fix 5e, merely demonstrate the futility of it.
AC is more than a dex save… And in fact may not involve dex at all if the target is wearing heavy armor.
I’m well aware. I just said that Dex is represented twice, once in each “system”.
There’s nothing arbitrary about it
I mean the division itself is entirely arbitrary.
a unified defense system would no doubt involve a lot of special-casing/ad-hoc calculations to be at all worthwhile, to the point at which it would be far more cumbersome and confusing.
What? No? Why would that be the case?
The two systems could be mostly merged by just having saves be passive, and having the attacker roll to overcome them. Exactly like AC currently works now.
Let’s say we only use AC as a defense and have no saves. How does a spell like Hold Person work?
The caster rolls their spell attack against the target’s Wisdom defence/save. Exactly like how AC works now for physical attacks.
Buffs like could add a flat value to the defence stat, like AC buffs currently do.
The more I think about it, this would actually streamline combat a bit too. Because the “acting” party is doing all the rolling, rather than waiting for the defending party to roll a save to see if attacker gets to continue.
This introduces confusion in new players like “sorry cat’s grace only applies to dex skill checks, not saves”. Which then makes them think all RPGs are a convoluted stack of exceptions, so they don’t try other games.
