The beginnings of capitalism may go back as far as the 1300s. The Ambassadors by Hans Holbein the Younger, which documents this new semi global mercantile system goes to 1533. There was encirclements that began shortly after until much of the land in europe had become private property.
The English capitalists had their revolution/civil war from 1640-1660, supplanting the power of the monarchy, the French and the american revolutions near the end of the 1700s. These were the big capitalist revolutions. They happened at the end of hundreds of years of development, struggle, change, etc.,
When we talk about socialist revolution we aren’t talking about a war, we are talking about the replacement of a whole system of social relations. There are wars fought, and uprisings and all sorts of historic struggle and conflict. But those aren’t the revolution we are referring to.
I already answered this more or less in my post referencing Lenin’s “withering away” of the state and the widening of democracy.
The social revolution has a theoretical endpoint. All contridictions are resolved thus creating a classless and therefore stateless, and by extension moneyless society.
The “state” refers to armed men that enforce class relations. State is not the same as government or administration. The state under socialism (according to MLs), “the state, but not the state” is changed in character and used to defend the social revolution from the machinations of the class enemy. As the social revolution progresses you haveca whithering away of the state, since it is only necessary for defense from capitalists and their counter revolutionary allies. It is no longer needed to enforce class relations because there is only one class.
Lenin’s additions came after Engels and Marx, but here Engels is laying out the basic points of the same concept
You’ve quoted Engels, that doesn’t mean you understand what he’s saying. You are making the assumption that we just entrust politics to other people.
Are you aware of how the soviets functioned in the USSR, or on the basics of whole process people’s democracy in the PRC? These arent systems where assumptions are just being presumed by people. There is a broadened democracy under socialism, as i mentioned at least a few times in my responses.
Ultimately your critique of Marxism here comes from you not knowing what has been proposed for “the medium term” in theory, or what has been done in AES in practice which has gone on to influence new theory.
Its a 200 year long intellectual tradition, informed by AES projects and updated. Just because you don’t know, doesn’t mean it hasn’t already been considered
That’s a weird thing to say, “they” are probably organized, and have participated in actual antifascist action in the last year or so. You think I was dismissing them, I’m dismissing what I perceive as indignation from you.
Pinochet was backed explicitly by western economic interests bent on taking back the mines and other seized properties that the Allende government had paid over full value for. Look up the shock doctrine by Naomi Klein. What did Pinochet do when he got into power? The same thing the Nazis and South Koreans did: kill every communist or suspected communist they could get their hands on. And why? Communists want to abolish private property. Allendes government, democratically elected, had taken control of some industry and was using the proceeds to pay for social services. Just like in Guatemala and Cuba, and countless other examples. This was untenable and had to be put to a stop, by the western capitalist imperialist powers. Its economic and political.
That’s exactly what I said in my first comment. I was saying that we may be talking about different things. For a socialist, sure there are national revolutions, but that’s not the struggle. In Wretched of the Earth, Fanon writes about how on Angola, there was a nationalist uprising that supplanted direct French colonial rule, but when the French were kicked out they just spread a bunch of money around to get their people elected or into positions of power to the new nationalist government. They fought to maintain the old system and the people weren’t educated in struggle, and didn’t realize they were giving their victory back to the French, but this time in the form of neo-colonial rule, or economic and political rule.
This is the kind of rule that the USA had on the island of Cuba under Bautista. But in this case there were guerrillas in the rural areas working with the peasants, and advanced socialist and communist parties in the cities working with the workers. Because the people were educated in struggle, they weren’t as easy for compradores to lure the people back into neocolonial economic rule.
The beginnings of capitalism may go back as far as the 1300s. The Ambassadors by Hans Holbein the Younger, which documents this new semi global mercantile system goes to 1533. There was encirclements that began shortly after until much of the land in europe had become private property.
The English capitalists had their revolution/civil war from 1640-1660, supplanting the power of the monarchy, the French and the american revolutions near the end of the 1700s. These were the big capitalist revolutions. They happened at the end of hundreds of years of development, struggle, change, etc.,
When we talk about socialist revolution we aren’t talking about a war, we are talking about the replacement of a whole system of social relations. There are wars fought, and uprisings and all sorts of historic struggle and conflict. But those aren’t the revolution we are referring to.
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Hmmmm seems like you’re not actually interested in what Engels was trying to say
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I already answered this more or less in my post referencing Lenin’s “withering away” of the state and the widening of democracy.
The social revolution has a theoretical endpoint. All contridictions are resolved thus creating a classless and therefore stateless, and by extension moneyless society.
The “state” refers to armed men that enforce class relations. State is not the same as government or administration. The state under socialism (according to MLs), “the state, but not the state” is changed in character and used to defend the social revolution from the machinations of the class enemy. As the social revolution progresses you haveca whithering away of the state, since it is only necessary for defense from capitalists and their counter revolutionary allies. It is no longer needed to enforce class relations because there is only one class.
Lenin’s additions came after Engels and Marx, but here Engels is laying out the basic points of the same concept
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Okay, then I’m saying
You were asking questions about communist theory. I’ve been answering your questions in terms of communist theory.
Can you clarify what your real question is then because it has nothing to do with communism. I’m not sure what you really want to know
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You’ve quoted Engels, that doesn’t mean you understand what he’s saying. You are making the assumption that we just entrust politics to other people.
Are you aware of how the soviets functioned in the USSR, or on the basics of whole process people’s democracy in the PRC? These arent systems where assumptions are just being presumed by people. There is a broadened democracy under socialism, as i mentioned at least a few times in my responses.
Ultimately your critique of Marxism here comes from you not knowing what has been proposed for “the medium term” in theory, or what has been done in AES in practice which has gone on to influence new theory.
Its a 200 year long intellectual tradition, informed by AES projects and updated. Just because you don’t know, doesn’t mean it hasn’t already been considered
They are messing with you. That and you are hamming it up a little. Its young people on the internet who read history, relax.
Google Victor Jara
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That’s a weird thing to say, “they” are probably organized, and have participated in actual antifascist action in the last year or so. You think I was dismissing them, I’m dismissing what I perceive as indignation from you.
Pinochet was backed explicitly by western economic interests bent on taking back the mines and other seized properties that the Allende government had paid over full value for. Look up the shock doctrine by Naomi Klein. What did Pinochet do when he got into power? The same thing the Nazis and South Koreans did: kill every communist or suspected communist they could get their hands on. And why? Communists want to abolish private property. Allendes government, democratically elected, had taken control of some industry and was using the proceeds to pay for social services. Just like in Guatemala and Cuba, and countless other examples. This was untenable and had to be put to a stop, by the western capitalist imperialist powers. Its economic and political.
Removed by mod
That’s exactly what I said in my first comment. I was saying that we may be talking about different things. For a socialist, sure there are national revolutions, but that’s not the struggle. In Wretched of the Earth, Fanon writes about how on Angola, there was a nationalist uprising that supplanted direct French colonial rule, but when the French were kicked out they just spread a bunch of money around to get their people elected or into positions of power to the new nationalist government. They fought to maintain the old system and the people weren’t educated in struggle, and didn’t realize they were giving their victory back to the French, but this time in the form of neo-colonial rule, or economic and political rule.
This is the kind of rule that the USA had on the island of Cuba under Bautista. But in this case there were guerrillas in the rural areas working with the peasants, and advanced socialist and communist parties in the cities working with the workers. Because the people were educated in struggle, they weren’t as easy for compradores to lure the people back into neocolonial economic rule.