- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
New research shows renewables are more profitable than nuclear power::In a recent study, researchers from the European Environmental Bureau (EEB), the Stockholm School of Economics (SSE), and the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK) questioned the planned development of new nuclear capacities in the energy strategies of the United States and certain European countries.
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Profit is not really the way to ascribe value to a method of power production. Otherwise continuing the use of fossil fuels would be the “best” course of action.
“Sure we destroyed the planet as we knew it, but for a brief moment in time, we increased value for shareholders!”
“Research shows slavery is more profitable than paid labour in the cotton industry”
Uhhh… So?
It’s not even how denialist politicians value it. Who is getting those profits is just as important to them as the size of those profits.
In this case the price is a reflection of the resources required to generate power, it also represents how much of something we can do - establishing solar panel factories and putting up solar farms is something we can do with less resources in a shorter amount of time.
The thing that worries me about nuclear power is that it takes something like 7 years to build, and renewables are on a declining cost curve. If you finish building your reactor 7 years from now and you can’t compete with other forms of power generation, what do you do with that asset? Nobody will buy it, you can’t sell the product. That’s not even accounting for the payback period of it either.
I’m just a layman so I’m sure there are nuances I’m missing and I think we need all options on the table when it comes to moving away from fossil fuels. That said it seems like a very risky thing to be investing in to me.
From what I understand, some degree of nuclear power is always going to be necessary. This is because while we tend to think of excess power in the energy grid as being stored away, this in fact is not the case and we only use power as it’s actively available. Excess power is wasted. The major downside of renewables is that they’re circumstancial. Solar energy is only available during clear days, wind power is only available on windy days, etc. Until we massively improve our energy storage capabilities we’re going to need some kind of constant supply of power backing the other ones when they aren’t available. Without adequate nuclear energy available, that’s going to be fossil fuels. And when compared to coal, oil, and natural gas, nuclear energy is unbelievably better for the environment. The only byproduct is the spent fuel which is dangerous, but we have control over where it ends up which is more than can be said for fossil fuels.
Yeah we need a certain baseline production that will always be on. Power needs fluctuate dramatically throughout the day. Maybe we need 100W in the morning but when people come home from work that jumps to 200W. You need to double your power production.
Nuclear takes a while to start up and slow down, so we just keep it at 100W the whole time. Then we have stuff like natural gas and goal which are great to use during peak times. You can turn it up and down very quickly.
If we want to have a nuclear + renewable system with zero fossil fuel usage then we essentially need better energy storage systems. Which people are working on, thankfully.
German nuclear plants can swing from 700MW to over 1300MW per day. Some nuclear plants can manage two swings per day, and these are OLD designs.
I still don’t think that would work as a peaker plant, but it’s better than nothing! If they really have improved it more than that it might work, but you are going to need at least one power source that can be meaningfully changed multiple times per day.
The trick with the economics of nuclear is that building it is the main cost, once the plant is operable the cost is much lower than other sources. So by the time you have a working plant, you might as well use it to get value out of it since you have already paid for it.
And the reason nuclear isn’t on a decline cost curve is due to the lack of investment monies. Nuclear didn’t get the same level of RND like renewables did over the last decade.
The one I’m interested in is the “mini” reactors. They can build them in a fraction of the time. And from what I’ve read they appear to generally be “safer”, but it’s always hard to tell with all the bullshit we all get peddled.
I’m all for renewables and had hoped they’d have been more implemented by now, but here we are…
They’re essentially vaporware. Where did you get the idea that they have a role to play?
Probably because the whole industry keeps talking about them. Plus some are already in testing I believe, others are still being planned. We did it for nuclear submarines so it’s definitely possible.
I’m not saying SMRs are impossible, I’m saying that the cost of them when compared to renewables is so ridiculously high that there’s no business case for them. We did it for submarines because you can’t use solar panels and wind turbines to power them.
You can’t use renewables for all power generation though. We don’t have the energy storage for that. Also over the long term nuclear can be profitable - it just requires a lot of investment and planning
Neither of those things are true. Where are you getting your information from?
My guy if it wasn’t profitable companies wouldn’t build them.
The fact you think we don’t need baseliad power is very questionable. Like where are you going to store all the energy from these renewables?
Where are you getting your information from?
Most likely we are never going to be 100% renewable. All (except maybe hydro…) current exploitable renewables are inherently unstable. Take solar for example, it’s only available during the day. Or wind power, where it is difficult to predict how much energy will be produced at any given time.
Using nuclear as a supplement to renewables is probably the cleanest solution we have. If the renewables aren’t producing enough power, let nuclear fill in the deficit.
The other choice is to build lots and lots of grid energy storage.
Yep, that’s exactly why it’s not worth it to build reactors now. We need an alternative right now, not in 10 years.
We should use the current nuclear reactors as much as we can and deploy renewables while we can.
If we required the recycling cost to be covered in the purchase of solar cells and wind mill blades would this still be true.
What’s cheaper to recycle, fiberglass windmills or radioactive waste?
I did not know the answer so I looked it up. Fiberglass is hard to recycle and it isn’t done much. A lot of nuclear “waste” is actually spent fuel which can be reprocessed and used again.
Obviously it would be better to improve recycling of fiberglass but as it stands today, nuclear waste might be recycled more often than fiberglass…
Nuclear waste is a hell of a lot more expensive to process than fiberglass, which is why I pay a “nuclear decommissioning” every month on my electric bill.
But disposal/storage of waste is baked in to the cost of nuclear. The economics of solar and wind don’t include those which is why we have windmill trash heaps
Decades of surcharges for nuclear decommissioning show that’s not true.
I was talking about the starting of new projects
Fiberglass is a removed and it’s used in far greater quantities.
You are right, solar panels in which lead is used in manufacturing are definitively easiest and cheapest to recycle.
Nuclear power is also very sensitive to the interest rate environment due to the very high upfront costs and financing. It’s probably an even bigger difference in favor of renewables now.
This is why we need SMRs and probably government funding as well. It’s hard to run a grid without base load power.
Also very prone to spikes in fuel cost or huge extras costs associated with a leak or disaster plus extra security costs in emergencies. Solar is decentralised, robust, and easy to repair or clean away even if bombed or hit by a natural disaster.
It’s got huge draw backs for people who don’t plan for the future and huge drawbacks for those that do - it’s really not looking like a choice many people are going to be make, especially when so many big solar projects have already paid for themselves while nuclear projects started at the same time haven’t even broken ground yet.
Shhhhh, the oil/gas and nuclear lobbyists don’t like this. Of course it’s less expensive you don’t have to store the by products or spent fuel rods. It’s way better for Mother Earth too. I got to log off now I hear the investors coming.
spent fuel rods
Ugh… this again?
