• TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    37
    arrow-down
    11
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    Tell that to the tankies. I’m tired of communism being associated with them.

    I stick to the original plan: moneyless, classless, and STATE-less. 🏴

    • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      You don’t know your Marx? socialism-transition-communism

      Marx, therefore, further refined the concept of a “transition society” and introduced the idea that the development of communist society would take place in two phases. In the first stage, “socialism” as he called it, the commune state was still necessary both to defeat all attempts at counter-revolution and to reconstruct the international economic system on an egalitarian and planned basis.

        • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          The only moral revolution is one by and for the people, with the working class playing a vital role in driving societal change.

          Moreover, one need not look far to find instances of so-called capitalist “Revolutions” supported by the United States, which often resulted in the rise of authoritarian dictatorships. For example, Fulgencio Batista’s regime in Cuba in 1933 and the tyrannical rule of President Rhee Syng-man in South Korea are separate cases illustrating this trend. Additionally, history records numerous coups and regime changes in Latin America, alluding to a broader pattern.

          It’s crucial to acknowledge that capitalist economies, exemplified by countries like the US, have at times allied with and propped up dictatorships, fascist movements, and ultra-nationalist regimes.

          When examining the actions and consequences of historical revolutions, it becomes apparent that revolutions aligned with capitalism have, both in the past and present, been more numerous and have encountered moral complexities and violence. One might argue that this predominance is partly driven by the capitalist motives associated with imperialism, which facilitated the diffusion of their economic model.

          • socsa@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            God I am just legitimately bored with all of history being viewed through this particular Marxist lens. France and the US heavily influenced Marx’s revolution framework, not the other way around. You can make a pretty strong argument that Marx’s fundamental ignorance and misunderstanding of these events significantly influenced his fundamentally broken revolutionary model, which has very obviously held back his largely sound economic theory.

            Yes, the cold war interventionalism by the US was very often bad. Geopolitical forces in the new nuclear era must have been pretty nuts, but I’m not going to defend most things done in the name of liberal democracy which forces autocracy onto others. To be honest, as a democratic socialist, I happen feel the same way about socialism as well. You will never free people by creating a dictatorship, be it of the proletariat or otherwise.

            • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Dude, dictatorship of proletariat doesn’t mean what you think it does.

              https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/sep/x02.htm

              When reading Marx please keep in mind that not only did he write in German, which has been translated… but if you have read his works he often heavily utilizes foot notes to explain what he means be certain things and at times will take an entire section building up an argument that is later summarized into a more concise statement. My first reaction to “dictatorship of proletariat” was negative, but reading more about his meaning is important.

              Did Marx get some things wrong, sure however, while I will never say “everyone has to read this” I will say that “everyone who wants to oppose Marx should actually understand it to a level that probably requires reading”

              • socsa@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                I’m quite aware of this interpretation and have read plenty on the topic. It is nearly undeniable that in practice, revolutionary communist movements have legitimately produced dictatorships quite often. People need to stop making excuses for Stalin and Mao. The world deserves a better class of communist, in the same way it deserves a better class of liberal.

                Like, have you read Lenin yourself?

                “Civil war gives the proletariat practice at arms!”

                Are you fucking kidding me? You cannot possibly be more glib about violence, or more boorishly modernist .

                • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Forget it, you said you are a democratic socialist right? Don’t fight loosing arguments about history with people. Shut them up with this one argument.

                  “I will defend every seemingly communist country and their actions, only after you defend every capitalist nation and all of their actions. Simple enough right?”

      • 001100 010010@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Marx was too idealistic. He didn’t account for what happens when you put people into power of this “dicatorship of the proletariat”. Most people who get into power are not going to willingly give up power. You’ll end up with self-proclaimed communist countries that are either stuck in this transition phase indefinitely, or end up abandoning it in favor of state capitalism.

        • Nyantifa
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Also, you talk a lot of shit about AES countries being forced to engage in capitalism for their survival for someone who also engages in capitalism for your survival. If you’ve got a better way, I’d love to see it.

        • Nyantifa
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          No shit they’re still in the transition stage. They are still defending against counter-revolution instigated by capitalist world powers, and have not yet overtaken capitalism as the international economic system. Are you unable to read, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

        • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Ah, I see you think yourself an expert on Marx. When he said this was he not meaning that instead of the people being under the dictatorship of a small privileged class of capitalists (see the plutocracy of many capitalist nations) he wanted the entirety of the people, in particular the working class to have control over their own lives, labor, and common interests?

          Idk, but it sounds like you think you have read more of Marx’s literature and understand Marx better?

        • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Or perhaps you are arguing that power will always be abused by individuals and thus we shouldn’t resist it and those that currently hold it in the form of capital…

          in which case…

          I never expect perfection in a human society, but I know for damn certain we can do better than what we do now and the improvements we can make are towards a more equitable society best expressed by socialist and communist thinkers alike.

          • 001100 010010@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’m saying that the transition phase being authoritarian is a mistake. Power always corrupts people, and the only way to make sure a worker’s revolution doesn’t end up failing is to implement a democratic transition government. Everyone gets a vote, and can run for and hold office. And anyone who has ever owned or managed a large bussiness or has ever accumulated a net worth of one million USD (or equivalent amount in other currencies) or more is banned from holding office. Worker’s rights should be entrenched into a constitution, and cannot be redefined unless 3/4 of the people agrees on it.

            That’s how I think it should be. Not some “communist party” that would become the new bourgeoisie as soon as the old one is eliminated.

            • Emi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              transition phase being authoritarian is a mistake

              Your understanding of communism is fundamentally flawed… Democracy is indispensable to socialism.

  • PASAQUALIA @lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    1 year ago

    Saying a state is Communist is shorthand for asserting that it’s on the path to achieving Communism. It’s an uncharted path with many obstacles so just saying “X government did this bad thing therefore it’s not communist/socialist” is very unhelpful, and it really only makes any sort of sense in the context of arguing on the internet

    • masquenox@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s an uncharted path

      No, it’s not. This is thoroughly charted territory. It just inevitably leads to more capitalism.

    • BakedGoods@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      1 year ago

      Every country is a mixed economy. Capitalism/Communism as ideology is dumb (like most ideologies). The closest to a fully capitalist country was probably Somalia in the 90s.

      • 🐱TheCat@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        I wish everyone would embrace this view so we could start talking implementation details instead of the endless ideological warfare. These capitalists and communists might as well just make a fucking church out of it already, so much dogma.

        • socsa@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          I have gotten into it with tankies on lemmy.ml on this topic at length. If you are only criticizing historical communism or historical capitalism then you are guaranteed to be fighting a strawman. These ideologies are not even fixed or singular even within the source material, much less in practice. Yet so many people seem unable or unwilling to even engage on conversation about first principles if it doesn’t cleanly fit inside their geopolitical head cannon.

      • masquenox@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        You can’t be “more communist-er” than something - you either are or you aren’t.

        • words_number@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yes you can. You could organize certain aspects/fields of the economy differently, injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries. So a country where everything is subject to a “free”, capitalist market could be calles less communist than a country, where for example the development and maintenance of public infrastructure is organized and funded by a government, be it democratic or authoritarian.

          The stance that there is only pure capitalism or pure communism is propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.

          • masquenox@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries.

            No, you can’t. What you are describing is merely using faux-leftist ideas to protect capitalism from itself by throwing more scraps at the working class - that is all.

            propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.

            “Reform” is how capitalists protect their power and privilege from working-class revolt. “Reform” is always used to protect the status quo from desperately needed radical change. “Reform” almost never infringes upon the power and privilege of capitalist elites. “Reform” is a vital tool in the wealthy’s arsenal when it comes to class warfare.

            “Reform” is not change - it is used to prevent change.

        • CAPSLOCKFTW@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          Just 5 communist countries. I can easily name 25 capitalist countries but only 5 communist countries would be enough for me to shut up.

          • 0x4E4F@lemmy.rollenspiel.monster
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            arrow-down
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            Truly communist countries? As in perfect communism? That doesn’t exist, as well as truly capitalist countries, that doesn’t exist as well.

            • Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              I’d say the US is close to perfectly capitalist, if you have enough money you can just rent legislators and call that “lobbying” (as opposed to renting legislators and callying it “bribing” or “corruption”, which isn’t much better tbf).

              • 0x4E4F@lemmy.rollenspiel.monster
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                The US is very good at playing the democracy/capitalism game. Democracy can’t be sustained by a capitalist economic system by the reasons you pointed out. Once money is involved in the mix, there is no democracy. You can buy everything with money.

              • masquenox@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                I’d say the US is close to perfectly capitalist

                Lol! What would “perfect capitalism” even look like? I’d say the only people who even imagines a “perfect capitalism” are magical capitalists like (so-called) anarcho-capitalists and objectivists - and the level of brain-rot you have to suffer from to buy into that kind of sixteen-dimensional logic-pretzel is next-to lethal.